Navigating Diversity: Insights from Dr. Joe Joe McManus
In this compelling episode of Trailblazer and Titans, we delve into the profound insights of Dr. Joe Joe McManus, a distinguished figure in educational leadership and multicultural education. As a first-generation college graduate, Dr. McManus brings a unique perspective, blending personal experience with professional expertise to critically examine race and equity in contemporary society.
Drawing from his recent work, A Brother's Insight: Guidance on Defeating Racism and Advancing Freedom, Dr. McManus addresses urgent issues surrounding racial justice and the need for systemic change within educational frameworks. The conversation explores the historical context of racism and underscores the importance of mentorship and community support systems, especially for those navigating higher education without familial guidance.
Listeners will be inspired by Dr. McManus's poignant anecdotes and reflections, which highlight the intersectionality of education and activism. His call to action resonates deeply, urging individuals to advocate for inclusivity and equity, and to embrace their agency in the pursuit of a more just and equitable world.
Join us for an enlightening dialogue that not only educates but also empowers, as Dr. McManus prompts a collective commitment to dismantling barriers that perpetuate discrimination and inequity in society.
Takeaways:
- Dr. Joe Joe McManus, a first-generation college student, has achieved significant academic success, including a PhD in Educational Leadership.
- The conversation highlights the significance of mentorship and community support in overcoming educational and professional development challenges.
- Joe Joe's experiences underline the necessity of creating inclusive environments in higher education to address historical inequities and discrimination.
- The podcast discusses the complexities of race relations in America and the cyclical nature of progress and regression in societal attitudes toward diversity.
- Joe Joe's new book, A Brother's Insight, reflects on personal experiences with racism and aims to provide guidance on fostering understanding and inclusivity.
- The need for innovative approaches to diversity, equity, and inclusion work is highlighted, particularly in the face of political challenges and societal pushback.
Transcript
My guest today, Dr.
Speaker A:JoJo McManus.
Speaker A:A first generation college student, JoJo earned his BS in Psychology from Florida Institute of Technology, an MA in Multicultural Education from Alliant International University, and a PhD in Educational Leadership from Florida A and M University.
Speaker A:More recently, he completed the University of Southern California's Race and Equity Centers Equity Institute and was part of the inaugural cohort for the national association of Diversity Officers in Higher Education Standards of Professional Practice Institute.
Speaker A:He also served on the NADOEAHE President's Task Force on Charlottesville and co chaired the Southern California chapter of the same organization.
Speaker A:He is the author of a new book, A Brother's Insight Guidance on Defeating Racism and advancing freedom.
Speaker A:Welcome, JoJo, to the podcast.
Speaker A:Well, JoJo, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker A:How you doing today?
Speaker B:I'm doing all right, thank you very much.
Speaker B:I'm glad to be here.
Speaker A:It's good to have you on.
Speaker A:I'm going to ask you my favorite question.
Speaker A:What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Speaker B:That is a good question.
Speaker B:I've had such great advice over the years, but I think back to something my dad told me when I was pretty young and had been hurt by a friend.
Speaker B:And he told me that it's important to be a friend in the best way that you know how, regardless of what you get back.
Speaker A:No, I like that.
Speaker B:It shouldn't be transactional, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:He said you never know what you're going to get back.
Speaker B:But he said you'll be the best friend you know how to be and hopefully that is returned to you and that served me well.
Speaker A:That's really good advice.
Speaker A:I like that.
Speaker A:I'm gonna have to borrow that.
Speaker A:So I'm curious, as you think about your journey, who are some people in your life who served as an inspiration or mentor for you along the way?
Speaker B:Yeah, I've been really blessed.
Speaker B:And it's interesting because I don't come from a sort of professional home, a very blue collar, which is, is one of the things that I love and appreciate about my background and.
Speaker B:But we didn't have that kind of, you know, sort of mentors like we think of them in the professional world.
Speaker B:But we had folks that looked out for us and they, they were mentors, but we never called it that.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:And so, you know, first, of course, it's the family and the extended family in the community and.
Speaker B:But I think the first official mentor I ever had was this guy, Dr.
Speaker B:Blake.
Speaker B:He was, he had worked for NASA and he was working At a school that I went to and he ran the planetarium.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And I was always interested in space.
Speaker B:I wanted to be an astronaut.
Speaker B:And he sort of took me under his wing, brought me to Florida to see a space shuttle launch, you know, and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:So he was probably the first person that was a mentor to me.
Speaker B:And what I think was, was most remarkable was that he talked to me not about just about science, but he talked to me about people and how science can serve people.
Speaker B:So I would think of him first and.
Speaker B:And then I've just been really, really blessed along the way.
Speaker B:I think people have poured into me, maybe because they just thought I needed.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker B:But certainly I've been blessed enough.
Speaker B:That department.
Speaker A:That's really.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:I'm curious, tell us about your journey being the first generation college student and how that shaped your academic and your professional path.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker B:Well, I was, I was first gen before there were programs for that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Now colleges and universities have these programs and they really help you and guide you.
Speaker B:When, when I went to college, it was, you know, good luck.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know that feeling.
Speaker B:So I think the challenge was the reason we have these programs now.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It was probably somebody like me that said, you know what, this was rough.
Speaker B:We need to develop something, right.
Speaker B:To make this easier.
Speaker B:Because I had no idea, you know, and so I made a lot of mistakes along the way, you know, with respect to, you know, my academics and, you know, what I should be thinking about.
Speaker B:Like, I didn't think about grad school until I was about to graduate undergraduate, and somebody said, you should do this.
Speaker B:And I literally had no idea what they were talking about, like, why would I do that?
Speaker B:So it, that was bumpy, you know, but I think it sort of triggered, you know, the, the.
Speaker B:That part of me that, that sort of says, I'll show you.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker B:So you want to make this difficult.
Speaker B:All right, all right, here we go.
Speaker B:Let's see what happens.
Speaker A:As I look at your degrees, it kind of reminds me of my own educational pathway because none of my degrees actually fit on top of each other.
Speaker A:My computer science degree doesn't match my master divinity degree, which doesn't match my educational degree.
Speaker A:So none of those actually intersect.
Speaker A:So I'm curious, what led you on the pursuit of the pathway that you were on?
Speaker B:Well, I started out in the sciences, actually.
Speaker B:I was studying space sciences, which was the term used for basically astrophysics.
Speaker B:And I was really into planetary science.
Speaker B:And I was chosen to be the first American employee of the Soviet Academy of Science.
Speaker B:On an exchange program.
Speaker B:And the week I got there, it became the Russian Academy of Science, because I got there the week of the coup with Yeltsin and all that stuff, and tanks in the street, you know.
Speaker B:So again, an interesting and bumpy ride there.
Speaker B:But I st.
Speaker B:While I was there, I was asked to speak, do a lot of public speaking.
Speaker B:And I had been doing that specifically around issues of race and racism and antisemitism and homophobia, things like that.
Speaker B:But race was sort of my entry point.
Speaker B:And so I didn't realize how terrified of public speaking I was because those things were personal to me.
Speaker B:So I cared so much.
Speaker B:I kind of overcame that.
Speaker B:But when they came, they asked me to talk about these random things about being American, I was terrified, and I did not do well.
Speaker B:So the first, you know, two or three speaking engagements that they had me do were pretty bad.
Speaker B:And then I remember they asked me to do a session on American holidays, right?
Speaker B:And I said, wait a second, I can sink my teeth into this, right?
Speaker B:So I did Thanksgiving, Juneteenth, which at the time, most Americans didn't even know what that was, the 4th of July and Martin Luther King Day.
Speaker B:Those are the ones I chose to talk about because I could get passionate about those stories.
Speaker B:And, you know, I realized while I was there that I was going to have to think about whether I wanted to continue in the sciences or whether I should do this work.
Speaker B:And when I came back, I.
Speaker B:I disappointed a lot of people because I was on a good path to.
Speaker B:For that being an astronaut thing.
Speaker B:But I just felt like I needed to do something different.
Speaker B:Really focused on trying to make a difference.
Speaker B:I think now, and I want to say this like, I.
Speaker B:I advise people now a lot and around doing this work, and I would have advised young me to become an astronaut and then use that voice, right?
Speaker B:But I didn't get that.
Speaker B:So I was like, this is what I should be doing.
Speaker B:So I came back, looked into psychology because I figured I needed to learn about why race and racism and all these things were reality.
Speaker B:So I studied, you know, organizational psych and multicultural psych.
Speaker B:But then I realized I'd be a pretty bad psychologist.
Speaker B:So I didn't want to continue with that because I figured, you know, I would be the psychologist where I'd either be telling you, cut it out.
Speaker B:Like, stop washing your hands.
Speaker B:Like, just cut it out, right?
Speaker B:Because I didn't get that, or I would be so worried that I'd be stalking my patients.
Speaker B:So I would have been pretty bad at psychology.
Speaker B:So I said, I got to do something a little different.
Speaker B:Went into education, focused on anti racist and multicultural ed.
Speaker B:And then by that point I was getting the hang of grad school and realizing that if I had a PhD, you know, that would open different doors and, you know, had an interesting path to Florida A and M University, where I got my, my PhD in Ed leadership and, and sent me on my, my, my track.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:Reminds me of the Bob Newhart clip.
Speaker A:Or, you know, he just says, just stop it.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So I want to get into your book because I think your book is really interesting.
Speaker A:Seems like it's based on what I can tell, based on your life and your story, your sister a little bit.
Speaker A:So kind of dig into a brother's insight.
Speaker A:What led you to write that book and kind of give us the backstory.
Speaker B:Yeah, so it's.
Speaker B:I've been doing work around anti racism and inclusive excellence, which is what we call DEI in higher education, for about 25 years in higher ed and about 35 years as an advocate.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So that goes back to my college days.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And, you know, when, when we saw the murder of George Floyd, you know, on television, my daughter, who at the time was like 9 or 10 years old, was hearing things from her little friends from both sides of this and came to me and said, what happened?
Speaker B:What really happened?
Speaker B:Because this friend is telling me this and that friend's telling me that, and she was actually aware enough to understand that they were probably just telling, you know, telling her what they were hearing at home.
Speaker B:And she knew what I do, right?
Speaker B:And she said, you know, I want to know what happened.
Speaker B:And I said to her, I said, there's a video so we can watch that if you're up for it.
Speaker B:And we sat on the couch and watched that video.
Speaker B:And it was one of those moments.
Speaker B:And you know, as a parent, as a much more experienced parent than me, there's moments where you just don't know what to do.
Speaker B:You see a look on your child's face or an experience.
Speaker B:And I saw a look on her face that I'd never seen before for and that I describe in the book, you know, and it's, it was, it was one of those moments where you just.
Speaker B:You want to shut it off.
Speaker B:You don't want her to have to go through this.
Speaker B:But I felt like she needed to see it.
Speaker B:And I also realized that, you know, the young girl that actually recorded it was a kid, right?
Speaker B:And so if she had to see it, what right do I have to say my kid, You Know, can't even watch it on a video.
Speaker B:So I said, let's.
Speaker B:Let's do this.
Speaker B:And afterward, of course, we're talking about it, and she says to me, isn't this what you're supposed to fix, right?
Speaker B:You're supposed to do something about this, right?
Speaker B:And I said, yeah, me and Granny Jane and Uncle Eddie and Tio and your mom.
Speaker B:Like, I'm naming all these people in her life that do this work.
Speaker B:And she cuts me off and she said, you know, something to the effect of, it's not working.
Speaker B:You got to work harder, dad.
Speaker B:And that hit not just as a dad, which you can imagine, but as a blue collar guy, like, telling me I'm not working hard enough is, is that's, that's a rough insult right there, right?
Speaker B:I'm not working hard enough.
Speaker B:Are you crazy?
Speaker B:But, you know, of course she doesn't understand.
Speaker B:And, you know, but it hit me and I thought to myself, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about what she said and that conversation, and I thought, okay, there's no more hours that I can do, but what could I do differently?
Speaker B:And, you know, I hadn't told my story a lot, and I thought, you know, I've never wanted to be the center of attention.
Speaker B:I like doing the work behind the scenes, get the policies right, you know, write, curriculum, teach.
Speaker B:And I thought, you know what?
Speaker B:This is something I hadn't done, and it would be tough, but I think maybe some people might need to hear what I have to say and if they can relate to my experience, you know.
Speaker B:And I think, like, with your book, right, you're coming from a faith perspective.
Speaker B:And, you know, there's going to be some people that will read your book and they'll hear you because of your background, because of your faith perspective, and that there's going to be some that just don't relate and maybe they'll connect to my story.
Speaker B:So we need a lot of these books.
Speaker B:We need people out there doing this work from all different walks of life, because you never know who's going to connect with you and be able to learn, you know, so I, I took it on.
Speaker A:Yeah, you know what's interesting about that, because my book came out based on what happened with Michael Brown in Ferguson, and it kind of laid dormant because it wasn't really an issue in the church's mind until the George Floyd thing happened.
Speaker A:Then all of a sudden the church is going, we got to figure out a way to talk about racism.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:And, you know, it kind of Happened during COVID of course.
Speaker A:And so I got a lot of online speaking engagements with churches to kind of come and talk to us about how we can deal with this in a, in a Christian perspective.
Speaker A:And it got hard because people got so inundated with the conversation of race that especially the white people.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:Because my church body is like 98% white.
Speaker A:So the white people I was, I was talking to was just, they were just, they were fatigued by it after about a year.
Speaker A:And it's like, I'm sick of being called names.
Speaker A:This isn't helping.
Speaker A:I don't really want to talk about it.
Speaker A:But I kept being invited places to kind of talk about this issue.
Speaker A:And so I tried to find a way my book kind of approaches it.
Speaker A:I'm sure yours has a unique perspective too, of someone trying to translate the differences in culture.
Speaker A:Because I think we, we don't talk to each other.
Speaker A:We talk at each other and we talk past each other.
Speaker A:So I try to get people understand, here's what one side is saying, here's how the other side hears it and vice versa.
Speaker A:Because I think that helped generate a conversation.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, well, and that's important.
Speaker B:Too often you're right, we, we sit in, in a conversation, whether it's on zoom or in person, and we're really just waiting for the other person to stop talking so we can say what we have.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker B:Like we're all pundits on television.
Speaker B:You know, that's how conversations have devolved into.
Speaker B:It's not a lot of listening and absorbing then responding.
Speaker B:It's just, are you done?
Speaker B:So I can say my part.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So tell us about the story of your book.
Speaker A:Because I think it's.
Speaker A:I read the information and it's so moving.
Speaker A:So tell us the story the book is telling.
Speaker B:Well, the stories.
Speaker B:The book starts out telling the story of my upbringing a little bit.
Speaker B:I grew up in a diverse family in a white flight town south of Boston, Massachusetts.
Speaker B:My, my brother is African American, was adopted, and then my youngest brother also looks nothing like me.
Speaker B:He's got blonde hair, blue eyes.
Speaker B:And if you know Boston, it's a very segregated city even to this day, for the most part.
Speaker B:And so there weren't neighborhoods that all of us were accepted in when we were in Boston.
Speaker B:And even in our white flight town, there was a lot of racial tensions, of course.
Speaker B:And so, you know, we, I talk about, you know, growing up in that and how my parents taught us in an anti racist way and that that's different than Non racist.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:It's different than the avoiding and staying neutral thing.
Speaker B:Doesn't help anything.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:You're going to be actively against this.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And I talk about how I learned that and then talk about what that looks like for other people.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:How do you learn to be anti racist and that it's not as, you know, complicated as people try to make it seem.
Speaker B:People, you know, often think about, you know, something like anti racism, as if you've got to be a professional, you've got to have degrees to be an anti racist.
Speaker B:And there's very complicated.
Speaker B:It's really simple.
Speaker B:It's about the decisions you make every day.
Speaker B:And I'll use faith, you know, as an example.
Speaker B:Your faith, you know, that informs your decision making.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Every day.
Speaker B:And there's some, some things that you make a decision about in a day that have nothing to do with your faith.
Speaker B:But you know, when it, when it applies.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The same could be said of environmentalism or anything else that people genuinely have as a core value and really care about.
Speaker B:So for me, if you're going to be opposed to, to oppression and hate, that's just a normal part of your decision making every day.
Speaker B:Whether you're making a purchase, whether you're, you know, interacting with folks, whatever it might be.
Speaker B:Those decisions that you make every day, that's what it's really about.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So the book gets into that and I talk about everything from, from anti racist dating to, to, you know, voting to, you know, schools, everything, you know.
Speaker A:You know that the DEI space has been, I think, very, very politicized lately.
Speaker A:And people hear that term.
Speaker A:And I have people sometimes on my podcast, they accuse me because I had a podcast special on critical race theory and they assumed that I was promoting it.
Speaker A:I'm saying, I'm trying to explain it because before you can be against something, you should at least know what you're against.
Speaker A:I'm not telling you which way to believe.
Speaker A:I'm just like, you know, you should be informed.
Speaker A:And I've had a lot of DEI people on my podcast because people don't understand sometimes that space that everything is not about telling the other side that there is something wrong with them and that you're a racist.
Speaker A:It's really trying to be.
Speaker A:I tried to, I define it as a lot of people just trying to figure out how do you make the space inclusive, where you create a sense of belonging so everybody feels like they have a space, a place in the space.
Speaker A:And I think that's where most people try to approach that from.
Speaker A:But we've made it into such a toxic issue that we can't talk about it.
Speaker A:I'm curious, because you work in that space, how do you approach the topic of inclusivity and belonging from your perspective?
Speaker A:That's different.
Speaker A:Maybe some other people do.
Speaker B:Well, first of all, I appreciate that you've had actual professionals that do this work.
Speaker A:Yes, right.
Speaker B:Because a lot of what we see on television and other podcasts are, are people that genuinely care about the work but don't know anything about what DEI actually is.
Speaker B:Diversity, equity, inclusion work.
Speaker B:And so they mean well, but when challenged, they don't really have the depth of understanding of the actual day to day work to be able to respond in a way that I think is most effective.
Speaker B:So I appreciate that you're having real pros on and I think we have to humanize this.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So using the acronym, demonizing the acronym takes the humanity out of the work.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So, you know, every I, I've met people that are opposed to D.E.I.
Speaker B:that can't tell me what the three letters stand for.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And they certainly can't define what those three things are.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And what it looks like in the workplace or in the community or in a school or university.
Speaker B:No idea.
Speaker B:They're just against it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Again, that's that transactional up.
Speaker B:My thing is, I'm against that.
Speaker B:I'm gonna say that.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Not going to hear what you have to say.
Speaker B:So I appreciate that you're having real pros on, but I think that what we have to understand about this work is that it is actually in response to centuries of oppression and discrimination.
Speaker B:So we are trying to level the playing field.
Speaker B:That's the purpose.
Speaker B:And that does include creating that welcoming atmosphere and all of that.
Speaker B:But it, but before that, it has to create an opportunity for folks who have been disadvantaged and discriminated against.
Speaker C:Historically.
Speaker B:And currently in different ways to have the opportunity to get in.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So, you know, I think that.
Speaker B:But what they've tried to do is turn it on itself and say, oh, this is DEI is discrimination.
Speaker B:And it's actually the exact opposite of that.
Speaker B:And I won't bore your listeners with the grimy details of what that all looks like, but it's about policy, it's about curriculum writing.
Speaker B:It's, you know, in truth telling in schools.
Speaker B:That's why banning books is beyond crazy to me.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:You want all kinds of perspectives and all of that, but I think that it's, it's.
Speaker B:There's a lot of really amazing people that have dedicated their lives to this work that are losing their jobs because of politics and bigotry.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:I think that's really.
Speaker B:We're in a shameful moment with regard to that, unfortunately.
Speaker A:Because you do this work, can you give me kind of some strategies that you use in your work to kind of make spaces more inclusive?
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:I work primarily in higher education, and I do work with corporate and nonprofit and government agencies as well as.
Speaker B:But my primary work is in education.
Speaker B:I started out as a professor in teacher education, worked in schools, all that kind of stuff, and went into administration, became an executive diversity officer and all that.
Speaker B:So the work has a lot of layers depending on where you are in the system or in the organization or even in the community.
Speaker B:And, and as a parent.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So I think that it's, you know, it just depends on, you know, where I'm at.
Speaker B:But if as a professional and DEI and, And I.
Speaker B:And I want to be clear that I'm proud of that.
Speaker B:I'm proud of the work that my field has done.
Speaker C:We.
Speaker B:We too often go by what's the worst thing that somebody can show about a field?
Speaker B:And then that becomes what everybody thinks it is.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker B:So they're using these examples of really bad work and saying, see, that's terrible.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:That is garbage.
Speaker B:But here's what's different, right?
Speaker B:Here's what's different about my field, the diversity, equity, inclusion field, than other fields.
Speaker B:There's an incentive for people that don't, you know, that don't agree, that do not want equity and inclusion, that want to continue with white supremacy and all of that.
Speaker B:There's an incentive to hire people that are bad at this work or hire people that will just sit there and do nothing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:There's no incentive to hire a bad doctor.
Speaker A:No, not typically.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:There's no incentive to hire a bad chief finance officer.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:There's not.
Speaker B:But what's happened is because there is this political incentive to make this look bad, you know, that we've.
Speaker B:We do have some bad practice out there.
Speaker B:And I'm the first one to jump in and say, like, yeah, let's do something about that.
Speaker B:Let's.
Speaker B:Let's work on it.
Speaker B:Let's fix it.
Speaker B:So I want to say that.
Speaker B:But to your question.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker B:The vast majority of the work is about trying to overcome either discrimination that's happened in the past or interpersonal difficulties that people have because they've learned to have biases.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker B:So how do you create an environment that offers opportunities for people to connect, to have real discussions.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And in higher ed, that's where we need to have these discussions, including protests, you know, free speech, you know, academic freedom, all very important in a higher ed setting.
Speaker B:And so the idea is to create that dialogue so that people get to know real people that don't look like them, that have different faiths, that have different sexual orientations or whatever the case may be.
Speaker B:And so that's a big part of the work.
Speaker A:Higher education right now, I think, is kind of in the spotlight.
Speaker A:I am curious, as I think about what you just said.
Speaker A:I worked a lot in the inner city.
Speaker A:We had elementary schools throughout all my ministry.
Speaker A:And when we did choice in, say, Milwaukee, for example, we discovered that a lot of kids coming to our Lutheran schools were behind their classmates in terms of academic standards.
Speaker A:In a higher education setting, how do you try to help those students who are coming in because of the educational backgrounds they may have, that has them at a disadvantage.
Speaker A:I'm just curious.
Speaker A:I know people talk about that.
Speaker A:I think part of what you probably are doing is trying to find a way to make sure that they don't get lost in that system or wash out.
Speaker A:So how do you help someone who's coming in, who's maybe behind the curve in higher education?
Speaker B:One of the things that I've tried to do and a lot of great peers have tried to do, is to incorporate the universities and the community colleges into the larger system.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Too often they're completely disconnected from Pre K through 12 education.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:They're not involved.
Speaker B:And so higher ed can play a big role, particularly state institutions.
Speaker B:But any, any higher ed institution can have play a big role in helping to, you know, improve the education that students are getting.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:In some of these underfunded and, you know, schools that have, you know, not enough teachers, not enough everything, which is often the case in either urban schools or rural schools.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So trying to get the university and higher ed as a whole to be more involved and to help to bring up the capacity of schools that have been neglected, that's one piece of it.
Speaker B:The other is to be able to take into account where a student has been successful.
Speaker B:So if I've got a student that has gone to one of these schools that you're talking about in the inner city, for example, and still been able to succeed, I take that into consideration because they've overcome some things that other students might not have to.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So that's where we get into admissions.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And you start thinking about, okay, what are we considering as we take in a student.
Speaker B:So there's some admissions considerations.
Speaker B:It is absolutely not quotas.
Speaker B:That's not a thing.
Speaker B:You know, they like to say it is.
Speaker B:Oh, you're just taking just kids who call ed school.
Speaker B:And all the schools that they claim are doing that are nowhere near majority students of color.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Which, by the way, is the global majority by far.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:White folks make up less than 10% of the planet's population.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:But if it falls under 70% out of school, they think, oh, something's wrong.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So we got to be clear about that.
Speaker B:So there's admissions pieces, and then once the student is on campus for all students.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:There's often things where students need to catch up in one area or another.
Speaker B:And so we have programs for that.
Speaker B:So there.
Speaker B:It needs to be sort of throughout the whole process, right.
Speaker B:From working with the schools, looking at admissions, and then making sure that students have the support that, that they need once they're on campus.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:For those who kind of wonder, what you do, what's a typical day look like for you?
Speaker A:I'm just kind of curious.
Speaker A:People are probably going, I don't know what a DEI specialist is or executive is.
Speaker A:What does he do?
Speaker A:Does he go around looking for marginalized students to talk to?
Speaker A:So, you know, give us an idea?
Speaker A:Kind of.
Speaker A:Yeah, like we go find, hey, he looks like a person of col.
Speaker A:Let me talk to him.
Speaker A:So, so what, what do you.
Speaker A:What does a day look like for you to kind of give us a kind of behind the scenes look.
Speaker B:Oh, that's funny.
Speaker B:Well, nowadays I, like, for the last five years or so, I've been an advisor externally.
Speaker B:So I've been advising presidents and diversity officers on how to, you know, strategically on how to do the work.
Speaker B:But I think it's better to give you an answer based on having been on campus as a diversity officer, you know, in the cabinet, working with president.
Speaker B:And so no, we don't wander around campus thinking, oh, you look diverse.
Speaker B:Let me have a conversation that has never been a part of my job, but it is what it is.
Speaker B:Looking at data and thinking about how do we strategically do better to serve the community that we serve, Whether it's at a community college where the community that you serve is your local community, or whether it's a university that pulls from all over the world.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You're thinking about how do we better serve those folks that are part of the community, that are part of our.
Speaker B:Who we bring into this university?
Speaker B:And so again, it's a lot of it is the external relations with schools, with community organizations, with scholarship organizations, with, you know, others that do this kind of work.
Speaker B:There's, there's a good amount of that.
Speaker B:And of course, along with that, there's fundraising, which is, I would say, from my perspective, the worst part of the job.
Speaker B:Not what I enjoy.
Speaker B:And then there's the, the behind the scenes work, which is sort of the core, right?
Speaker B:It's looking at policy.
Speaker B:How do we improve policies.
Speaker B:Policies so that we can serve everybody and that everybody can have the best possible experience on this campus and learn the most and be most engaged and then be successful when they leave.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So a lot of that is really not sexy, right?
Speaker B:It's a lot of reading policy and thinking about how do we adjust and how do we, you know, whether it's admissions policy, whether it's, you know, disciplinary policy, whether it's, you know, it could be anything in between, right?
Speaker B:So there's that really, you know, a lot of sitting at your desk, staring at a computer, trying to get things right.
Speaker B:And then of course, there's the educational component and how do you serve the faculty and staff who educate students every day, you know, and how do you provide resources so they can develop the best curriculum possible and the best services?
Speaker B:And then there's also that piece where you're doing a lot of the educating, right.
Speaker B:A lot of folks in those roles will have dialogues on really challenging issues.
Speaker B:And that's one of the things that's, that's difficult to see right now is that a lot of institutions in higher ed are running away from these issues right now because they're scared of the current administration in Washington.
Speaker B:And so they're not having these conversations.
Speaker B:I think that's one of the shames of all of this, is that because those conversations are critical to what kind of professional or what kind of community member, what kind of parent these young people are going to be when they graduate.
Speaker A:That's really helpful.
Speaker A:It's funny because I was thinking about what you said earlier, your daughter, and the question you're trying to ask now is how can we do this better?
Speaker A:As you think about where we are as a nation and as a people, what would you, how would you kind of put your finger on the, the pulse of race in America?
Speaker A:Oh, no easy questions here.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:The who's your mentor is a lot easier, right?
Speaker B:Well, I mean, I think it is actually like a pulse, right?
Speaker B:There's, there's, there's a rhythm to it.
Speaker B:There's cycles, and there have been cycles over time, you know, from the very beginnings of what became, you know, the United States.
Speaker B:And even when you think about global issues, there's a rhythm to it.
Speaker B:So there have been.
Speaker B:There's been progress.
Speaker B:Like, we can look back to reconstruction, for example, Right.
Speaker B:And after reconstruction, we got Jim Crow, right?
Speaker B:That's, you know, a harsh response to progress.
Speaker B:We had a black president, and MAGA is a response to that.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And so white supremacy, which is the root of many of the oppressions that we deal with, because all of them are just meant to keep us separated in different ways, right?
Speaker B:There's a rhythm to it.
Speaker B:And right now we're on that regressive pulse, right?
Speaker B:We're on that regressive part of the cycle where there's pushback.
Speaker B:And I think what is at the root of it that the Republican Party in particular has tapped into in this case, and I'm not putting it just on them, there's plenty of racism to go around, right?
Speaker B:But in this case, you know, what they've tapped into is this feeling among particularly working class white folks that they are being discriminated against.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:It doesn't make it real, but what it is is a slow loss of privilege.
Speaker B:As we've continued to do this work to try to get to equity, right.
Speaker B:To get to a place where everybody does have opportunity.
Speaker B:As we get to that, people do lose privilege, unearned privilege.
Speaker B:And when you lose that, it feels like from my experience in working with folks, it feels like you're being discriminated against because things get harder because you're not getting put at the front of the line automatically.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So you're having to compete more.
Speaker B:It feels like something's wrong if you've grown up with that privilege.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:In this case, we're talking about white privilege, but there are a number of different privileges.
Speaker B:And so I think it's important, particularly for folks that look like me, to recognize that, yes, life is hard, period, for everybody.
Speaker B:There are challenges.
Speaker B:And for somebody that looks like me, none of it has to do with the color of my skin, Right?
Speaker B:That's not what it's about.
Speaker B:There are challenges because people.
Speaker B:People exploit other folks, and a lot of us get exploited regardless.
Speaker B:And in our case, it may be because of our.
Speaker B:Our class, it may be because of other things, our, you know, income at whatever where we live.
Speaker B:It can be a lot of different things.
Speaker B:But I think that we have to educate people better, right?
Speaker B:Which is where the book bands come in and where this, you know, we're not going to have you know, any attention on folks of color or on women or LGBT folks, that's where that is so problematic.
Speaker B:Because when you take that, that little bit that we've been able to get into schools, you take that out, people become less understanding of one another.
Speaker B:And when you won't talk about race and racism, people become less understanding of what's going on.
Speaker B:And so the challenge there that we have right now is how do we ensure that people start to learn better about these issues.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And to be empathetic, to understand that if you're struggling, there are reasons for that.
Speaker B:But stop looking next to the dude next to you who's also struggling and blaming him.
Speaker C:Right, Right.
Speaker B:That's not who's doing this to you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But that's.
Speaker B:That's the Okie doke.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:That's what.
Speaker B:That's the way that it.
Speaker B:That it's promoted, and that's the way that these politicians are playing the game, and they're winning right now.
Speaker A:I'm curious, as you think about where you're trying to move forward now.
Speaker A:What projects are you working or initiatives that you are maybe seeing inroads in terms of making a difference?
Speaker B:Well, it's.
Speaker B:It's challenging right now.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So I mentioned that I do this executive advising now, and I've lost a number of clients.
Speaker B:You know, it's been huge because they've lost their jobs or they've lost their budgets because the presidents of their institutions are using this as an opportunity to cut the work.
Speaker B:Many of them didn't want to do it in the first place.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And some of them are just scared legit.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They're trying to be, you know, do what's right for their institution.
Speaker B:And they're afraid of losing millions in grant money.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:What we've seen, though, from Columbia and many other examples, you're going to lose it anyway.
Speaker B:The grant money on these issues is going away.
Speaker B:Doesn't matter what you do.
Speaker B:So stand on business.
Speaker B:You know, you need to look to your institutional values and missions.
Speaker B:We've all got these beautiful mission statements.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:They look great.
Speaker B:The question is, are you going to live up to it?
Speaker B:When it's difficult, it's easy.
Speaker B:When it's not.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:It's easy to live up to it.
Speaker B:When there's no challenge, what shows your true character as an individual or as an institution is when it's challenged, what are you going to do?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And we're not seeing enough institutions stand on their business and say, no, this is who we are.
Speaker B:We know this is Right.
Speaker B:And we're not going to just obey, you know, that don't even exist.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:To do this.
Speaker B:So that being said, you know, the projects that I'm working on, there's a number I'm working to try to get people that do this kind of work across sectors to start working together.
Speaker B:We've not done a good job of that.
Speaker B:And it's partly because it's a relatively young field.
Speaker B:So getting diversity professionals from corporate government agencies, nonprofits, schools, universities, community organizations to start working together, supporting each other, that's one thing that I've been focused on.
Speaker B:And then some projects that are, that are meant to try to provide funding for the organizations that do this work and the people that do this work without having to be a part of, you know, the constant begging for money.
Speaker B:So we're trying to get creative with that, with these social, socially conscious businesses working with, with folks and.
Speaker B:And then, you know, I'm still doing my work and really work.
Speaker B:I'm working with some amazing people that do this work every day, that are presidents, that are diversity officers, and others that, you know, I, I can't say enough about them.
Speaker B:I, I would name them and tell you all about them, but I keep it confidential.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:For obvious reasons.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker B:But these are unbelievably courageous people that are doing, you know, God's work.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:In my opinion, they are doing, you know, very difficult work at this point.
Speaker B:And they are really some of the most ethical and impressive people that I've ever known.
Speaker B:And so I'm blessed to be able to advise them, you know, because I'm older and been there and can, and can give them some, some guidance.
Speaker A:That's great.
Speaker A:I was talking to one diversity, equity and inclusion person.
Speaker A:It's like, we almost need to, like, rebrand and change the name because this name has been so corrupted.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:So, I'm.
Speaker A:But I am curious about that in terms of.
Speaker A:It seems to me that something you mentioned before is really critical, that when you hire people who aren't good at this to do a bad job on purpose, it gives it a bad name.
Speaker A:So as you think about people who are doing this work, for those who are new in it and young in it and really have a passion for really creating space where people feel included, what advice do you have for the new person who's kind of just starting out and says a real heart for it?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, it's difficult right now because a lot of people are running away from it and.
Speaker B:But there are people like myself that felt called to this work.
Speaker B:And I think that for those folks, my advice is to connect with those of us that have been doing it for a long time to get guidance on the professional.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because there, there's going to be different paths going forward.
Speaker B:One of the things that I think is important that I've learned from my own mentors is that because of this cycle, there's been resistance to this work by whatever name, from way back when it was abolition, right.
Speaker B:All the way to DEI and inclusive excellence or whatever it's called today, because there's always been resistance.
Speaker B:We've learned.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:How to make adjustments in order to still get to those same goals.
Speaker B:And I remember being in rooms when we were talking about, do we, what do we call it now?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Years and years ago, when they were saying, you can't do affirmative action or you can't do that, what are we going to call this work?
Speaker B:And they felt, we felt like, okay, well, if we just call it the goals, Diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, belonging, like that's just the goal.
Speaker B:How do you say you're against equity?
Speaker B:How do you say you're against inclusion?
Speaker B:Well, unfortunately, the other side may be awful, but they're not dumb, right?
Speaker B:And they, they figured, okay, well, we'll just go by the acronyms.
Speaker B:We'll just, we'll demonize the acronym because it's harder to, to demonize diversity, equity and inclusion.
Speaker B:It's easier to dei and nobody knows what it is, but I'm against it.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So, you know, I think that there's, there are paths.
Speaker B:And if you have good mentors and you seek them out, you know, we're, we all want to be able to work with younger people and make sure that they have good paths to this work, get the studies done.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Learn how to, to do this work.
Speaker B:It's, it's not simple.
Speaker B:And one of the challenges that we often have to make adjustments.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So what I believe will come from this mess that we're in, this regressive part of the cycle is innovation.
Speaker B:We will continue to innovate and find different paths towards the goals of having, you know, respecting diversity and ensuring equity and practicing inclusive and welcoming work in whatever field we're in.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:So here's the other bookend and my very difficult question to start out this conversation.
Speaker A:What do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker B:Oh, man, if you had asked me that years ago, it would have been all technical about fighting racism and all of that.
Speaker B:And of course, I hope that I've made a little bit of a dentist.
Speaker B:But honestly, because I'm a parent, I'm a dad, you know, it changes your perspective.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And it makes you think a little bit differently.
Speaker B:And I think what it's done to me is to make me think that I want my legacy to be that he was a good person and left the world a little bit better than the way he found it.
Speaker B:You know, tried to make it a lot better.
Speaker B:But experience has told me that, you know, your goal has to be to, on balance, have done better than you've done, done bad.
Speaker B:Because we all mess up, you know, and even in the work.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:One of the things that I tell younger folks in this work is that, you know, nobody's perfect in whatever field.
Speaker B:Again, I can go to medicine and, or psychology.
Speaker B:There's been.
Speaker B:There's been things that were very well meaning that didn't work.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you keep getting better and you keep working harder and you innovate and you do.
Speaker B:And you're.
Speaker B:Ultimately, your goal is to.
Speaker B:To, you know, solve whatever problem.
Speaker B:So for me, I.
Speaker B:I hope I.
Speaker B:I will be able to.
Speaker B:The people that knew me will be able to say, he.
Speaker B:He left the world a little better than when he got here.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker B:That's what I'm hoping.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Where can people find your book, A Brother's Insight Guidance on Defeating Racism and Advancing Freedom, and connect with you on social media?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, the book is available everywhere.
Speaker B:You know, your favorite online store or, you know, your local bookstore.
Speaker B:But I think that the easiest way to find everything about me or links to the book would be on my website, which is just drjojoe.com d r j o-o e.com and that has links to my social media, which I'm trying to get better at, and, and links to purchase the book or to work with me as an advisor as well.
Speaker A:Well, Jojo, thanks so much for this conversation and blessings on the work you do.
Speaker A:And may your daughter be more inspired by the next generation of those who care about all people.
Speaker A:Because I think it's.
Speaker A:At the end of the day, it really comes down to our goal should be to see each other from my perspective, as God sees people as everybody's valuable.
Speaker A:And if we can do that, we begin to break down some of the walls of us versus them.
Speaker A:You, us, we, they, it's.
Speaker A:It's who we are as the collective people that God created.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:I'm with you 100%.
