Navigating the Turbulent Waters of Betrayal: Insights from Dr. Debi Silber
Dr. Debi Silber, a pioneering authority on betrayal and recovery, joins us to share her transformative insights derived from groundbreaking research. As the founder and CEO of the Post Betrayal Transformation (PBT) Institute, she has dedicated her career to understanding the nuances of betrayal and the subsequent healing processes. Dr. Silber's work has unveiled that betrayal constitutes a distinct type of trauma, necessitating a tailored approach to recovery that involves navigating through five predictable stages. Throughout our discourse, she emphasizes the paramount importance of intentional healing, asserting that time alone is insufficient for recovery. Together, we explore the profound implications of her findings and the strategies individuals can use to reclaim their health, relationships, and overall well-being after experiencing betrayal.
Dr. Silber articulates that traditional beliefs, such as the notion that 'time heals all wounds', are fundamentally flawed when it comes to betrayal. Through her extensive research, she highlights alarming statistics from her Post Betrayal Syndrome quiz, revealing that many individuals continue to grapple with the repercussions of betrayal long after the event has passed. The discussion emphasizes the necessity of intentional healing, as merely waiting for time to pass will not suffice. Listeners are encouraged to recognize that healing from betrayal is a deliberate process requiring active engagement and self-reflection, ensuring that individuals do not unwittingly carry the burden of unhealed trauma into future relationships and experiences.
Takeaways:
- Dr. Debi Silber is a pioneer in the field of betrayal recovery and transformation, having founded the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute.
- Through her extensive research, she discovered that betrayal constitutes a distinct type of trauma, fundamentally different from other forms of trauma.
- The process of healing from betrayal can be mapped out in five predictable stages, which individuals must navigate to achieve true transformation.
- Time does not inherently heal all wounds; intentional and deliberate efforts are necessary for recovery from betrayal.
- Dr. Silber's work emphasizes the importance of understanding the impact of betrayal on one's self-worth and relationships, necessitating a comprehensive approach to healing.
- The Post-Betrayal Transformation Institute offers a structured program that certifies practitioners to aid individuals dealing with the effects of betrayal, promoting healing and recovery.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
Our guest today is Dr. Debbie Silber, a trailblazer in the field of betrayal, recovery and transformation.
Speaker A:She is the founder and CEO of PBT Institute, Post Betrayal Transformation and the visionary behind National Forgiveness Day celebrate annually on September 1st.
Speaker A:She is a two time international best selling author, an award winning speaker and host of globally ranked podcasts From Betrayal to Breakthrough which ranks in the top 1.5% of podcasts worldwide.
Speaker A:Her groundbreaking PhD research uncovered three discoveries that completely changed how we understand and heal from betrayal, redefine the timeline and process of recovery.
Speaker A:Through her evidence based framework, she certifies practitioners around the world to help others move past betrayal and reclaim their health, relationships, confidence and happiness.
Speaker A:She is a feature on Fox, CBS, Dr. Oz show, the TEDx twice and she's here today with share her powerful insights on healing, forgiveness and transformation.
Speaker A:We're honored to welcome her to the show.
Speaker A:How are you doing today?
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:Looking forward to our conversation.
Speaker A:Me too.
Speaker A:So I'm going to ask you my favorite question.
Speaker A:What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Speaker B:You know, I don't know who said it, but if there's an idea you have, it's yours to do.
Speaker A:So what does that mean to you in your life in terms of how you've, how you've applied that to kind of your existence?
Speaker B:You know, for me it meant that if something, if I get an idea for something, I really need to take that seriously.
Speaker B:And I've learned that I actually do a few things.
Speaker B:If, if I have an idea and I really want to do it, but then it just seems too hard or whatever I picture, I have two scenarios that I picture.
Speaker B:One is I picture that idea now in a thought bubble and someone else looks at that same thought bubble and they grab it and I'm like, oh, wait a second, that was mine.
Speaker B:And if that doesn't get me, I picture sitting my, when my kids are younger anyway, sitting my four kids down and saying, yeah, you know, that idea I had, it was too hard.
Speaker B:And they're looking at me like, what?
Speaker B:That's all you got, Mom?
Speaker B:And if one doesn't get me, usually the other one does.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:I'm always curious.
Speaker A:People like yourself who've gone on this journey for a while, who are some people in your life who served as a mentor or inspiration for you along the way?
Speaker B:Yeah, I, I would have to say, and this may sound crazy, but the people who have hurt me the most have been my greatest teachers.
Speaker B:I have learned so much.
Speaker B:What of what not to do the damage that's caused by saying or doing hurtful things.
Speaker B:So I've learned a tremendous amount from those experiences and from the people who've, who've hurt me.
Speaker B:I've definitely had positive role models in my life.
Speaker B:But the most profound ones that stick.
Speaker A:Out the most are those because you deal with betrayal.
Speaker A:And it's kind of one of the most misunderstood emotions out there in terms of trauma.
Speaker A:What is it that makes it so uniquely damaging and compared to other forms of trauma?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, you know, I did a PhD study on it.
Speaker B:Certainly you don't do something like that unless you don't study betrayal unless you have to.
Speaker B:And, and that study led to three groundbreaking discoveries.
Speaker B:One was that betrayal is in fact a different type of trauma.
Speaker B:And you know, I remember asking my study participants saying, if you've been through other traumas, does betrayal feel different for you?
Speaker B:And, and unanimously they said, it's so different, here's why, because it feels so intentional, we take it so personally.
Speaker B:So the entire self gets shattered.
Speaker B:Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust.
Speaker B:Like what?
Speaker B:Let's say, for example, you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss, life will never be the same.
Speaker B:But you don't necessarily go back and question the relationship.
Speaker B:You don't question your ability to trust.
Speaker B:You don't question your sanity.
Speaker B:With betrayal, you do so that betrayal is, shatters the self as well as the life you've had before.
Speaker B:So it makes it a very different experience.
Speaker A:That's interesting.
Speaker A:I'm curious about that because when you mentioned that, it made me think about.
Speaker A:We always get that thing that, you know, time heals all wounds.
Speaker A:That doesn't seem probably true with betrayal.
Speaker A:Why is that?
Speaker B:Yeah, you know, and that was another thing about the study.
Speaker B:The, the study proved that time does not heal all wounds.
Speaker B:I've had over a hundred thousand people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling and a few things about that.
Speaker B:You know, people, there's a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you'd like to share?
Speaker B:And people write things like, my betrayal happened 35 years ago.
Speaker B:I'm unwilling to trust my betrayal happened 15 years ago, feels like it happened yesterday.
Speaker B:So we know we cannot count on time.
Speaker B:We can't even count on a new relationship to heal it.
Speaker B:Unless and until we intentionally and deliberately heal it, it will follow us around in our work, in our health, in our relationships.
Speaker B:And happy to share some stats from the post Betrayal syndrome quiz or.
Speaker A:Oh, please do.
Speaker A:Yeah, just do that.
Speaker B:Yeah, sure.
Speaker B:So now imagine men and women, just about every country's represented, over a hundred thousand people.
Speaker B:And as much as I'm going to share the stats, hear these numbers.
Speaker B:Ready?
Speaker B:78% constantly revisit their experience.
Speaker B:81% feel a loss of personal power.
Speaker B:80% are hypervigilant.
Speaker B:94 deal with painful triggers.
Speaker B:And if you've ever had a trigger, they're debilitating.
Speaker B:These are the most common physical symptoms.
Speaker B:71% have low energy.
Speaker B:68% have sleep issues.
Speaker B:47% have weight changes.
Speaker B:So in the beginning, you can't hold food down.
Speaker B:We later on, you may be emotionally eating, using food for comfort.
Speaker B:45% have digestive issues.
Speaker B:And that could be anything.
Speaker B:Crohn's, IBS, diverticulitis, you name it.
Speaker B:The most common mental symptoms.
Speaker B:78% are overwhelmed.
Speaker B:62% can't concentrate.
Speaker B:So imagine you can't concentrate.
Speaker B:You have, let's say, a gut issue.
Speaker B:You still have to work.
Speaker B:You still have to raise your kids.
Speaker B:That's not even emotionally.
Speaker B:Emotionally.
Speaker B:88% experience extreme sadness.
Speaker B:83% are very angry.
Speaker B:And you're going to go back and forth between those two all day long.
Speaker B:I'll just read a few more.
Speaker B:79% are stressed.
Speaker B:This one killed me.
Speaker B:This is why I wrote my book, trust again.
Speaker B:84% have an inability to trust.
Speaker B:Think about what an inability to trust will do for you in work, in your relationships.
Speaker B:67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again.
Speaker B:82% find it hard to move forward.
Speaker B:90% want to move forward, but they don't know how.
Speaker B:What's even more staggering about these numbers?
Speaker B:You didn't hear me say one thing.
Speaker B:20%, 30%, they're super high.
Speaker B:They're also not representative of a recent betrayal.
Speaker B:This could be from the parent who did something awful when you were a kid.
Speaker B:This could be from the partner who broke you, you know, broke your heart in high school.
Speaker B:So think about this.
Speaker B:That person may not know care.
Speaker B:Remember, they may not even be alive.
Speaker B:And here we are walking around with symptoms decades later because of something left unhealed.
Speaker B:The good news is you can heal from all of it.
Speaker B:And that was the third discovery.
Speaker A:So let's talk about that.
Speaker A:How do we heal from it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, the way to heal is to move through the proven predictable five stages from betrayal to breakthrough.
Speaker B:That was the third discovery.
Speaker B:And what we learned was, while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, if we are to completely heal.
Speaker B:We will move through these five proven predictable stages.
Speaker B:And what's even more exciting about that is we now know what happens physically, mentally and emotionally at every stage and we know what we need to do in order to move from one stage to the next.
Speaker B:Healing is entirely predictable.
Speaker A:So let's walk through those.
Speaker A:I'm dying to get our audience into those five stages.
Speaker A:I'm sure a lot of people out there have dealing with that, regret, dealing with that, that, that betrayal through.
Speaker A:So let's kind of walk through those five stages.
Speaker B:Yeah, sure.
Speaker B:And that, that is all we do within the PPT Institute.
Speaker B:It's what I certify all of our coaches in.
Speaker B:I'll give you a real brief rundown of the stages.
Speaker B:So stage one is before it happens.
Speaker B:And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional and spiritual.
Speaker B:What I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and mental thinking and doing and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being.
Speaker B:If a table only has two legs, it's going to be easy for that table to topple over.
Speaker B:That's us.
Speaker B:Stage two, Shock, trauma, D day, Discovery Day.
Speaker B:This is the scariest out of all of the stages and it's the breakdown of the body, the mind and the worldview.
Speaker B:So right here you've ignited the stress response.
Speaker B:You're now headed for every single stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease.
Speaker B:Your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm you.
Speaker B:You just can't understand, understand what just happened.
Speaker B:This makes no sense.
Speaker B:And your worldview has just been shattered.
Speaker B:Your worldview is your mental model.
Speaker B:The rules that govern us, that prevent chaos, trust this person, don't go there.
Speaker B:These are the rules.
Speaker B:And in one earth shattering moment or series of moments, every rule you've been following is no longer, is no longer true.
Speaker B:The bottom has bottomed out on you and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet.
Speaker B:It's terrifying.
Speaker B:But think about it.
Speaker B:If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do?
Speaker B:You grab hold of anything or anyone in order to stay safe and stay alive and that's stage three.
Speaker B:Survival instincts emerge.
Speaker B:It's the most practical out of all of the stages.
Speaker B:If you can't help me get out of my way, how do I survive this?
Speaker B:Who can I trust?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Here's the trap though.
Speaker B:Stage three by far hands down, is the most common place we get stuck.
Speaker B:Here's why.
Speaker B:Once we figured out how to survive Our experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma we just came from, we think it's good.
Speaker B:And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we don't know there's a stage four, we don't know there's a stage five, transformation doesn't even begin until stage four.
Speaker B:But because we don't know that we plant roots here, we're not supposed to, but we do.
Speaker B:And four things start to happen.
Speaker B:The first thing is we start getting all of those small self benefits.
Speaker B:We get to be right.
Speaker B:We love being right.
Speaker B:We get our story, we love our story, right?
Speaker B:We don't have to do the hard work of learning to trust again.
Speaker B:We get sympathy from everyone we tell our story with too.
Speaker B:And on some level we're not getting much else, so we take it.
Speaker B:So we plant deeper roots.
Speaker B:And now, because we're here longer than we should be, the mind starts doing things like, you know, maybe you're not that great, maybe you deserved it, maybe this, maybe that.
Speaker B:So we plant deeper roots.
Speaker B:And now because these are the thoughts we're thinking, this is the energy we start putting out.
Speaker B:Like energy attracts like energy.
Speaker B:So now we start attracting circumstances and people and, and experiences towards us to confirm, yep, this is where you belong.
Speaker B:And here's where we'll join that lame support group.
Speaker B:And now we found our people.
Speaker B:So we will actually sabotage our success.
Speaker B:Here's where we may go to therapy.
Speaker B:If that therapist isn't highly skilled in betrayal, you're going to feel heard, validated, understood.
Speaker B:You're not an inch closer to healing.
Speaker B:Here's where we may be healing, but we're afraid to outgrow our betrayer.
Speaker B:So we sabotage ourselves because we're afraid.
Speaker B:And it gets worse.
Speaker B:But I'll get you out of here because it feels so bad.
Speaker B:But we don't know there's anywhere else to go.
Speaker B:Right here we start numbing, avoiding, distracting.
Speaker B:So we start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, tv, whatever, just.
Speaker B:Just to help us get through the day.
Speaker B:And you know, think about it.
Speaker B:We do it for a day, a week, a month.
Speaker B:Now it's a habit.
Speaker B:A year, 10 years, 20 years.
Speaker B:And I can see someone 20 years later and say that emotional eating you're doing or that drinking you're doing.
Speaker B:Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal?
Speaker B:They look at me like I'm crazy.
Speaker B:It's going to happen.
Speaker B:Twenty years ago, all they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker A:It does make sense.
Speaker A:And it's are.
Speaker A:We do love to survive.
Speaker A:We just want to get to the point where, where the pain stops, where we can move forward, we can just somehow just live life like it doesn't matter.
Speaker A:How do you help people break through that stage where they're just stuck there?
Speaker A:Because if you're comfortable, you don't feel the need to have to change.
Speaker A:How do you create that sense of crisis?
Speaker A:Okay, I gotta get out of this stage.
Speaker A:It's not healthy for me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And this is where, this is the hardest spot to leave because some people have been there for decades and they can't imagine anything other than surviving their experience.
Speaker B:But what's happening is when you're in stage three and I'll get you to stages four and five, when you're in stage three, you're medicating and suppressing symptoms, life kind of stinks.
Speaker B:It's okay, you're surviving it.
Speaker B:You're not happy in your work, you're not happy in your relationships, you're not happy in your, your health's not that great, but you're managing all of it.
Speaker B:And the longer you're there, the longer you don't, you know, the, the more you can't even conceive of anything better.
Speaker B:Getting through your day is now the goal and that's it.
Speaker B:You know what it's like.
Speaker B:Here's an easy way to, to imagine it.
Speaker B:Imagine two best friends and they're both 30 pounds overweight.
Speaker B:They're both fine, right?
Speaker B:They're both totally fine.
Speaker B:They put themselves together, they look good.
Speaker B:It's not stopping them from doing anything.
Speaker B:But one day, one friend says to the other, I'm, I'm just done with this.
Speaker B:I'm going to go on this healthy eating journey and I'm going to start working and I'm going to lose the weight and feel really good.
Speaker B:And she does.
Speaker B:And she now is able to experience life where she's choosing clothes she wants versus what fits.
Speaker B:She has the extra energy, she's feeling great, all whatever it is that those 30 pounds off has done for her, right?
Speaker B:But she says to the other friend, come on, it's so good here.
Speaker B:And the other friend's like, I'm fine.
Speaker B:And the truth is, she is right.
Speaker B:She has no idea what it feels like with those £30 off.
Speaker B:Same thing here.
Speaker B:If people in stage three had any idea how great it felt in stages four and five, they wouldn't waste a minute there.
Speaker B:So what I try and do and what I have my coaches do is let them know that because when they truly understand that the only things they have access to is more of the same.
Speaker B:Like, for example, someone is so miserable, they're so unhappy, they're so lonely.
Speaker B:Let's say.
Speaker B:Let's say it's a breakup, and then they.
Speaker B:The relationship ends.
Speaker B:They just want to, you know, fill that loneliness.
Speaker B:Well, the only.
Speaker B:The only person they have access to is someone similar, so they're gonna relive another version of the same thing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So what I try and do is let them know that's all you have access to.
Speaker B:You've been through the worst of it already.
Speaker B:You owe it to yourself to get to stages four and five.
Speaker B:Because when you're in stages four and five, you see things from that perspective.
Speaker B:You make decisions from that perspective, and you have access to stage four or five people.
Speaker B:You can't have access to that when you're stuck in stage three.
Speaker A:I love the stage four you have is the new normal, the adjusting part.
Speaker A:How do you find.
Speaker A:How do you.
Speaker A:How do you make sure that because you've been so comfortable in stage three that you don't regress and go back to stage three?
Speaker A:Because even though the new stage four and five feel better, there's still that tendency to kind of be back to the comfortable.
Speaker A:So how do you help people not slide back into.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, so let me get you to stage four.
Speaker B:If you're.
Speaker B:If you.
Speaker B:You grief, you will.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:If you're willing to let go of the story, a bunch of things you need to do, you move to stage four.
Speaker B:Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal.
Speaker B:Here's where you acknowledge, I can't change what happened, but I control what I do with it.
Speaker B:Right there in that decision, you're turning down the stress response.
Speaker B:You're not healing just yet, but at least you stopped the massive damage that was going on in stages two and stage three.
Speaker B:Stage four feels like if you've ever moved, if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo, you know, apartment, whatever, all your stuff's there.
Speaker B:It's not cozy yet, but it's this sort of hopeful excitement.
Speaker B:It feels like that.
Speaker B:But, you know, think about it.
Speaker B:If you were to move, you don't bring everything with you.
Speaker B:You don't bring the things that don't represent who you're now ready to become.
Speaker B:And what I found was there's this one spot.
Speaker B:As people go from stage three to stage four, if your friends weren't there for you, they're not coming along.
Speaker B:That lame support group.
Speaker B:You're Done.
Speaker B:That therapist who is just going over the same thing with you over and over, you're done.
Speaker B:The betrayer that you were trying to just make it work with, you're done.
Speaker B:And, and people ask me all the time, Dr. Debbie, is it me?
Speaker B:Yes, it is.
Speaker B:You're undergoing a transformation.
Speaker B:If they don't rise, they don't come along.
Speaker B:So at you're moving into stage four and it's this hopeful excitement.
Speaker B:It's very forward moving, but not, not action oriented around researching narcissism and, and cheating this and that.
Speaker B:No, it's about what do I need now?
Speaker B:So you're rebuilding and re recreating a new version of you.
Speaker B:That's what's going on in stage four.
Speaker B:So to answer your question, you feel it when you're slipping back in those stage three, any sort of stage three ways, you're catching it because stage four feels so much better.
Speaker A:Get it?
Speaker B:And stage five is so stage five is healing, rebirth and a new worldview.
Speaker B:So the body starts to heal.
Speaker B:Self love, self care, eating well, exercise.
Speaker B:You didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier.
Speaker B:Now you, the mind is healing.
Speaker B:You're making all kinds of new rules, new boundaries based on the road you just traveled.
Speaker B:And you have a whole new worldview based on everything you see so clearly now.
Speaker B:And the four legs of that table.
Speaker B:In the beginning, it was all about the physical and the mental.
Speaker B:By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too.
Speaker B:Those are the five stages.
Speaker A:I'm curious.
Speaker A:Suppose someone's gone through this and moved on to the new stage five and they're, they're recovered from the betrayal.
Speaker A:What happens when it happens to him again?
Speaker A:Because we know that sometimes you can get out of this and, and all of a sudden you, you move beyond that last one.
Speaker A:But all of a sudden there's a new person now who betrays you.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's good.
Speaker B:It's, it's.
Speaker B:There's a few ways to answer this, because first of all, you don't attract the same type of people you did before.
Speaker B:Your, your energy is much different.
Speaker B:You're just a different person.
Speaker B:And you know, you're just not an energetic match for someone like that.
Speaker B:So that's one thing.
Speaker B:The other thing is your BS meter is so sharpened and so strong that you smell that stuff from a mile away.
Speaker B:And the third thing would be if for whatever reason it did happen, you have the tools and resources that it could never take you down like it did the first time.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:So kind of walk us through when you get a new client, kind of what, what's, what's the process of you helping them to walk through these stages?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you know, within our, within the PBT Institute, so the pbts2.com we have our signature program which is Reclaim.
Speaker B:And they come in, everything is numbered according to what stage you self assess.
Speaker B:So within a minute, you know, if you're in stage two, stage three, stage four, whatever and you're going to live daily classes with our certified coaches, you have private sessions with them.
Speaker B:There's open Q A with me.
Speaker B:There's our signature program which literally moves you through the pro, the, the, the five stages.
Speaker B:If the research proved it works, it's in there.
Speaker B:If it proved it did not, it's not.
Speaker B:And all of the coaches that I certify are all amazing at the five stages, but some really specialize in one stage over another.
Speaker B:Like in the beginning, in stage two, you, you've just been shocked, right?
Speaker B:Your nervous system is completely disregulated.
Speaker B:We have a coach that is so good at those stage two things.
Speaker B:But then as you're healing then we have, you know, you're really moving through the stage four, stage five.
Speaker B:Like who do I, who am I ready to become?
Speaker B:Now we have our mindset coach and our, and our self growth coach.
Speaker B:So they're all certified in the five stages but you, you, they move along.
Speaker B:You know, you choose a coach based on really where you're, what stage you're in and where you're at.
Speaker B:We even have a program for the betrayer as well and different community so there's no triggering whatever.
Speaker B:And these are people who are ready to become someone they're proud of.
Speaker B:And it's a separate program.
Speaker B:They meet with our coaches, they have their own curriculum, they meet with me and I'm not easy on them.
Speaker B:There's no shaming or blaming.
Speaker B:But they're, I'm not letting them get away with any, any of it.
Speaker B:And we so often we have one partner going through our rebuild.
Speaker B:That's the Betrayer program.
Speaker B:And a reclaim is for the betrayed.
Speaker B:And they meet up again as two very different people.
Speaker A:It's beautiful because you have, you've sold this internationally, you've tested this across different cultures.
Speaker A:Have you found that it's more effective in some cultures or with groups than others or something that's more difficult with some groups than others?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker B:We actually just recently launched, we have a global initiative where some of my pbt coaches because we're, we're global.
Speaker B:You know, everybody's, we have people from all over the world, but we understand that there are different cultures and customs and, and languages that, you know, we, we're not in.
Speaker B:So some.
Speaker B:I have three so far, three of our certified coaches, one in Kenya, one in Vietnam, and one in the Middle East.
Speaker B:And we have the program converted into those language, into those languages and taught according to those cultures and customs.
Speaker B:So it's a very different experience.
Speaker B:Like, for example, what our PBT coach in the Middle east is doing is very different than our PBT coach in Kenya or Vietnam only because it's a, it's a different, you know, it's just different kind of rules, different ways.
Speaker B:And this way anybody in those areas can, can, can have the best of the best because this work is not represented.
Speaker B:It's not there, it's not in these countries.
Speaker B:But it needs to be, I'm sure, slowly bringing it there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm curious, in the Middle east, what are some of the things you notice as, as maybe challenges doing it there then versus maybe here in America?
Speaker B:It's, it's very different because it's almost.
Speaker B:And I, I remember having a conversation with my, my coach from the Middle east and she says, you know, it's almost assumed that betrayal is going to happen, you know, so I am certainly not nearly as qualified to deal with that as she is.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:What do you mean assumed?
Speaker B:So not, not.
Speaker B:Not in my head.
Speaker B:So she's proficient at that and, and is just works with, works with the Middle Eastern clients so beautifully.
Speaker B:It's a very different experience.
Speaker A:Yeah, I would imagine.
Speaker A:You also mentioned that you work with the betrayer.
Speaker A:I'm curious, how does that work look for someone who either are these like, unaware sometimes that they betrayed or they are aware and they just, they didn't.
Speaker A:Don't seem to care.
Speaker A:I mean, kind of tell me what that work looks like as you'd work with the betrayer.
Speaker B:Yo, they're aware.
Speaker B:They just, they made it.
Speaker B:And this wasn't like a mistake.
Speaker B:This was a choice.
Speaker A:This was a choice.
Speaker B:Very painful one.
Speaker B:And they have shown shattered the heart and the trust of the very person that loves them the most.
Speaker B:And they love the most.
Speaker B:And you know, betrayal will show you, show you who someone is.
Speaker B:It also has the opportunity to wake them up to who they temporarily became.
Speaker B:And when that's the case, they're ready to become someone very, very different.
Speaker B:And so certainly this would not be a program for the betrayer who's Just sort of on to the next and blaming someone else for their actions.
Speaker B:This is someone who's like, what in the world did I just do?
Speaker B:And, and there's a tremendous amount of change that I see with them.
Speaker B:And at first I was, I was wondering, I'm like, do I even want to work with them?
Speaker B:Is this going to be too triggering for me?
Speaker B:And, and it's, it's very rewarding because just as the betrayed absolutely transforms when they move into stages four and five, so does the betrayer as they become someone new.
Speaker B:And it's beautiful to watch.
Speaker B:And it's beautiful to watch these 2.0 relationships that emerge when they're both through the program.
Speaker A:So I love what you're describing because what you're describing sounds to me like transformation.
Speaker A:We hear a lot today of the term resilience.
Speaker A:How do you distinguish between resilience and transformation?
Speaker A:Seem like your goal of your program is transformation, not just to become resilient, because it seems like stage three is kind of resilient, but.
Speaker A:But stage five seems more transformational.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, I'm going to get, I'm going to explain it in an analogy.
Speaker B:And, and I, I use this one.
Speaker B:I believe it was in my, the second TEDx talk.
Speaker B:Do you have post betrayal syndrome?
Speaker B:And I gave this analogy of a house.
Speaker B:Here's the difference between resilience and transformation.
Speaker B:Resilience to me is restoring, bringing back.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Transformation is a whole different thing.
Speaker B:So imagine an old house.
Speaker B:And imagine if the house needs a new roof and you get a roof.
Speaker B:That would be resilience.
Speaker B:You're restoring it.
Speaker B:Or let's say it needs a new.
Speaker B:It needs a new door.
Speaker B:You get a new door.
Speaker B:That's resilience.
Speaker B:You're restoring.
Speaker B:Here's trauma and transformation.
Speaker B:A tornado comes by and levels the house.
Speaker B:New roof's not going to fix it.
Speaker B:New door's not going to fix it.
Speaker B:Right now you have every right to cry and scream and, and mourn the loss of your house.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And stand at the lot where your house once stood.
Speaker B:And, and you know, and you can tell everybody, isn't this the worst thing you've ever seen?
Speaker B:You'd be right.
Speaker B:You don't have to do anything.
Speaker B:However, should you choose to rebuild your house, you don't have to.
Speaker B:But if you choose to, why in the world would you build the same one?
Speaker B:There's nothing there.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Why not give it everything the old house didn't have?
Speaker B:Make it better, more beautiful?
Speaker B:That's the opportunity.
Speaker B:That's the opportunity.
Speaker B:In betrayal, life as you had known it is gone.
Speaker B:So the opportunity is intentionally and deliberately creating something entirely new that you wouldn't have had access to, had the experience, you know, not happened.
Speaker B:That's trauma well served.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:So your book basically is in three parts.
Speaker A:Part one is kind of Understanding Betrayal.
Speaker A:You kind of lay that out.
Speaker A:We just covered a lot of part two, which is this.
Speaker A:Five stages.
Speaker A:Part three is now the, the moving beyond the new you.
Speaker A:You have a term I want you to dig into for me.
Speaker A:Energy vampires.
Speaker A:Tell us what that is.
Speaker B:Yeah, so you're talking about the book Trust again.
Speaker B:Yeah, Trust a couple of books ago.
Speaker B:Okay, so energy vampires.
Speaker B:These are the people that just suck the living life out of you and you know it by how you feel when you are with them.
Speaker B:You're going to, when you leave that experience, you're going to feel drained, depleted, exhausted because they're siphoning your energy as opposed to when you're spending time with people where you feel energized, uplifted, better for having spent time with them.
Speaker B:Those people are good for you.
Speaker B:So you know, now no one's going to be everything all the time, of course, but, but if you're with someone and you are constantly feeling exhausted and drained and spent, they're siphoning your energy.
Speaker B:That's a bit, that's an energy vampire.
Speaker A:So tell us about your new book.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, that was Trust Again.
Speaker B:And after Trust Again was from hardened to Healed, which is just for stage three.
Speaker B:After that was the Rebuild Roadmap.
Speaker B:And that was just for the betrayers.
Speaker B:And my most recent book is the Betrayal Recovery Roadmap.
Speaker B:And that's actually for companies and for those who work because it's.
Speaker B:How does betrayal impact you at work?
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:Because we have so many people coming into the PVT Institute saying, I can't hold it together, I'm going to lose my job, I'm making mistakes, I can't focus, I'm not creative, I'm not productive.
Speaker B:So the Betrayal Recovery roadmap is specifically for companies to realize that they're spending so much on money and time on stress related issues and disorders which would be healed if someone moved through the stages.
Speaker B:They're spending so much on, let's say some sort of therapy or something where if someone had access to the PBT Institute, they would move through the stages, they would retain such great talent and the, the employee or team member would just get back their energy, their productivity, their morale, they're all of it.
Speaker B:And that's what Happens when they move through the stages.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm looking at your book and you, you have down there some wonderful stats that people have to say if you don't think it's impacting your company, here are some statistics to kind of show you that kind of give us some of the ones that stood out to you and your research that you really kind of push on, kind of highlight.
Speaker A:When you talk about what is doing to you, you, your productivity and your employees.
Speaker B:Well, that's it.
Speaker B:I mean, think about it.
Speaker B:It's like one of the most expensive things is hiring and, and training new talent.
Speaker B:And it, it's, it very often they're just completely checked out or they're disengaged.
Speaker B:They can't help it.
Speaker B:They're, you know, they're doing their best to leave it outside of the workplace, but it's impossible.
Speaker B:It's impossible.
Speaker B:A betrayal doesn't do that.
Speaker B:You can't, you can't just leave it outside of your workplace.
Speaker B:It's going to follow you around.
Speaker B:I mean, think about it.
Speaker B:Let's say even just with trust, the person you trusted the most just proved untrustworthy.
Speaker B:How do you trust the boss, the co worker, that collaborative partner you see?
Speaker B:Or your confidence was shattered in the betrayal.
Speaker B:So how do you have the confidence to sell your, your, your whatever you're selling?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:How do you put yourself out there?
Speaker B:Your confidence is completely, completely destroyed.
Speaker B:So it, it's one of those things that's hitting companies so hard and they don't look at betrayal as a possible reason.
Speaker B:They talk about psychological safety in the workplace and that kind of thing, but it's the betrayal from outside.
Speaker B:And it could be a workplace betrayal as well, but it's so often what happens outside of the workplace greatly impacts the workplace.
Speaker A:So who is this book targeting?
Speaker A:Is this targeting HR department or is it targeting just the CEOs?
Speaker B:It's all of them.
Speaker B:It's, it's.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And there's a quiz in there so they can even see how it's affecting their people.
Speaker B:So this is for the betrayal recovery roadmap, my most recent book.
Speaker B:That's for HR, for CEOs, for team leaders, for managers, and just, and just for anybody working in a company if they're not sure.
Speaker B:Wow, is this really affecting my morale, my productivity, my.
Speaker B:Am I going to, you know, because I hear it all the time.
Speaker B:I'm going to lose my job.
Speaker B:I can't think.
Speaker B:You know, that's what happens.
Speaker A:This sounds more widespread than we probably are aware of.
Speaker A:We just, we Think about other things that are impacting our mental health.
Speaker A:We don't think about portrayal as one of those things that's really impacting our mindset, our ability to operate on a daily basis.
Speaker A:Why is it that we don't recognize the seriousness that this is in our lives?
Speaker B:I think we're ashamed.
Speaker B:There's so much judgment around just the word.
Speaker B:You know, when you even say the word betrayal, it feels like such a sucker punch.
Speaker B:You know, just the word alone, it's so visceral.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And we're not used to it, we're just not used to talking about it.
Speaker B:And, and that's why I'm so grateful to have an opportunity, you know, to, to share it.
Speaker B:Because it is, it's one word that has such deep impact on those that experience it.
Speaker B:And it shatters your life.
Speaker B:It creates a psychological earthquake where life is now before it happened and after it happened.
Speaker B:And something that profound that shatters your body, your mind, your heart needs way more than just thinking time will heal it, heal it or just sharing the experience.
Speaker B:And it's way more than that.
Speaker B:You need to move through the five stages.
Speaker A:So as someone who's teaching this and raising our practitioners, where do you see the future of the betrayal industry?
Speaker A:I guess I would say going moving forward.
Speaker B:I mean, I'd love for it not to ever happen.
Speaker B:That would be my number one goal.
Speaker B:But at least if it's going to, there's a roadmap now that could shave off decades of someone's pain.
Speaker B:So my intention is, is to have as many coaches and practitioners and HR professionals certified in our methodology so that anybody who comes their way can move through one of the most painful of the human experiences.
Speaker A:So I'm sure you have hundreds of stories of people you've worked with.
Speaker A:Is there just a story, don't give us a name, but just a story of someone that was so profoundly impacted by your work.
Speaker B:You know the one that just came to mind as you mentioned that she was in her mid-80s and she's.
Speaker B:She was in her mid-80s.
Speaker B:She had a 70 plus year digestive issue from a family betrayal.
Speaker B:She was adopted.
Speaker B:They didn't tell her.
Speaker B:It was like one of those 70 plus years.
Speaker B:She had a gut issue.
Speaker B:Two weeks into our program, she healed from a 70 plus year digestive issue.
Speaker B:That's what happens when you deal with the root cause.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:I love to ask my guest this other question.
Speaker A:What do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker B:You know, I just want the PBT Institute and just to be the go to space.
Speaker B:If someone's betrayed, they just know.
Speaker B:Find yourself a PBT coach or practitioner.
Speaker B:Find yourself the PBT Institute in your country.
Speaker B:You know, we're going to have as many countries represented as possible and get the help you need to so you can regain your health, your life, your happiness.
Speaker A:So, Debbie, I have a surprise guest question this year on the podcast.
Speaker A:Pick a number between one and five for your surprise question.
Speaker B:Four.
Speaker A:Four.
Speaker B:Four kids.
Speaker A:All right, so would you rather be the most popular kid in school or the smartest kid in school?
Speaker B:Smartest.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Being popular was never a thing for me.
Speaker B:It never was popular, not popular.
Speaker B:Now.
Speaker B:I value intelligence.
Speaker B:I'm always learning to grow, so that's my, my interest.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:As we wrap up this and thank you for taking the time to be on the podcast and really share this because I think it's so critical as so many people probably are dealing with this who are not aware.
Speaker A:If you want to leave my audience with the key takeaway from our discussion, what would that be?
Speaker B:You know, I've been there.
Speaker B:I know how painful it is.
Speaker B:And I would say even if you have to say, say this a million times, it's worth it.
Speaker B:Even though it happened to you, it's not about you.
Speaker A:So powerful.
Speaker A:Where can people find you, follow you, and connect with you on social media?
Speaker B:Yeah, Everything is at the PBT, as in post betrayal transformation.
Speaker B:Thepbtinstitute.com so they can find all your.
Speaker A:Books there and all the projects you're working on.
Speaker B:All of it.
Speaker A:Anything else you got in the works, that's your next project that you want to share with the audience.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, we just celebrated National Forgiveness Day, which celebrated every year on September 1st.
Speaker B: I founded that in: Speaker B:And the next thing we're doing is we're launching a getting ready to do this a membership program for our certifies for our certification.
Speaker B:So this way, once they're certified, how do they get that message to, to the world?
Speaker B:How do they grow their businesses?
Speaker B:I've been in business 34 years, so I'm sharing everything I know.
Speaker B:Once they get certified, they can join that and be a part of it.
Speaker B:So right now, anybody who's a part of our certification program is eligible.
Speaker B:And it's just an exciting, exciting process to think that I'm going to share.
Speaker B:You know, if they want to write books, they want to do TEDx talks, they want to create national holidays or speak, I've done it.
Speaker B:So I just can't wait to share it.
Speaker B:With all of those who have an interest in helping those who've been betrayed.
Speaker A:You know, one last thing.
Speaker A:I just thought about this.
Speaker A:If there's someone listening to this podcast and they go, you know what?
Speaker A:I want to become a counselor or practitioner, how do they do that?
Speaker A:Get training from you to be able to be one of those people that's going out there dealing with grief in the world?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, we have.
Speaker B:Everybody who goes through our certification has been through something because now they want to share it, but they.
Speaker B:You have to be a coach or healer of some kind to qualify to be a certified PBT coach.
Speaker B:And then you can be a doctor, therapist, counselor, psychologist, psychiatrist to qualify as a PBT practitioner.
Speaker B:Same training for both.
Speaker B:It's the five stages, but just a different certificate when you're done.
Speaker B:But we want to get this certification into as many hands as possible, because for every coach or practitioner that's certified, all their clients and patients can have access to the five stages.
Speaker A:So what's the timeline look like for someone who's going to.
Speaker A:Who starts the program and then completes it?
Speaker A:About how long does that take?
Speaker B:Oh, it could be.
Speaker B:It could be a few weeks.
Speaker B:It could be a few weeks to a few months.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, thank you so much for what you do and for letting the audience know how if they have a passion, they want to be part of the PBT community and team, that they can reach out to you and.
Speaker A:And do it.
Speaker A:So thank you for what you do.
Speaker A:I really appreciate your time on the podcast.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
