The Art of Mentorship: How to Cultivate Future Leaders
The central theme of this podcast episode revolves around the profound significance of mentorship and the intricate dynamics of succession planning in leadership. We engage in a thoughtful dialogue with our esteemed guest, Mark, who elucidates the invaluable advice imparted to him by his father: "If you ask, you might get; if you do not ask, you will not get." This principle serves as a poignant reminder of the necessity for proactive engagement in seeking opportunities and cultivating relationships. Mark further shares his journey into the realm of process consulting, emphasizing the importance of understanding the delicate interplay between continuity and succession within organizations. The episode culminates in a reflection on the legacy one leaves, underscoring the imperative to foster meaningful connections and invest in the growth of future leaders.
A salient feature of this episode is the in-depth examination of the multifaceted nature of mentorship and the indelible mark it leaves on personal and professional trajectories. The dialogue commences with a thought-provoking inquiry regarding the most impactful advice received by the guests. This question serves as a catalyst for a broader discourse on the essence of seizing opportunities and the inherent risks associated with asking for what one desires. The speaker articulates a profound principle inherited from a paternal figure: action is a precursor to opportunity, whereas inaction breeds missed chances. This maxim sets the tone for a rich exploration of the significance of mentorship, particularly in leadership roles, and the vital relationships that foster growth and development.
As the conversation unfolds, personal anecdotes illuminate the transformative influence of mentorship on one’s career trajectory. A poignant narrative recounts the experiences of the speaker with a mentor who consistently emphasized the potential for greatness within him, thereby illustrating the profound impact that encouragement and belief can have on a young person's self-perception and ambition. This narrative underscores the notion that success is not solely an individual endeavor; rather, it is often a product of communal support and the nurturing of relationships that inspire individuals to reach their fullest potential. The discussion invites listeners to reflect on their roles as mentors and the legacies they aspire to cultivate, thereby reinforcing the idea that investing in others is a vital aspect of leadership.
The latter segments of the episode transition into a discussion about the evolving nature of consulting and leadership, particularly the emergence of process consulting as a distinct and impactful practice. The speaker delineates the core competencies that define effective consulting, which encompass deep listening, collaborative assistance, and a commitment to learning. This exploration not only demystifies the consulting profession but also highlights the relational dynamics that are essential for fostering effective leadership. Ultimately, the discourse serves as a call to action for listeners to consider how they can contribute to the growth and development of others, thereby enriching their own journeys and the journeys of those they mentor.
Takeaways:
- The best advice shared in the podcast underscores the importance of asking questions, as articulated by speaker B, who reflects on the wisdom imparted by his father regarding the opportunities that arise from inquiry.
- Mentorship emerges as a pivotal theme, with speaker B emphasizing the vital role mentors play in shaping one's leadership journey and the significance of providing guidance to others in return.
- A pressing issue discussed pertains to the integration of continuity and succession planning within organizations, highlighting the necessity for a cohesive approach to ensure long-term success.
- Speaker B's narrative illustrates the transition of leadership within a company, showcasing the importance of thoughtful and deliberate succession planning to foster ongoing growth and stability.
- The conversation touches on the evolving landscape of consulting, where emerging trends, such as the influence of artificial intelligence, are reshaping the nature and expectations of consulting relationships.
- Finally, the podcast encourages listeners to consider their own legacy and the lasting impact of their leadership on future generations, emphasizing the importance of nurturing relationships and fostering growth in others.
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Transcript
Well, Mark, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker A:How you doing today?
Speaker B:I'm doing well and looking forward to this.
Speaker A:I am looking forward to it as well.
Speaker A:So I'm going to ask you my favorite opening question to kind of get the ball rolling here.
Speaker A:What's the best piece of advice you ever received?
Speaker B:You know, I think it's amazing that you're asking that right out of the gate, because I've been asked that kind of question.
Speaker B:Now here's my favorite question.
Speaker B:Why do we save the favorite questions for last?
Speaker B:It's like, no, it's not your fit.
Speaker B:It's just your go to question.
Speaker B:So the favorite question to start, what is the best piece of advice I ever received?
Speaker B:There are a number of things we can always point to.
Speaker B:So I just got to focus it up and say something like this, which is a true thing.
Speaker B:My dad used to say, if you ask, you might get.
Speaker B:If you don't ask, you won't get.
Speaker B:And then something like after that, he'd say, this is life or that is life.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:You know, so in other words, give it a try.
Speaker B:I think it was Jesus or.
Speaker B:No, not Jesus.
Speaker B:It's the scripture.
Speaker B:But cast your bread on many waters.
Speaker B:That's Ecclesiastes, right?
Speaker B:Cast your bread on many waters.
Speaker B:And that idea of sow your seed broadly, now, that was Jesus, know, and stuff comes up in different places.
Speaker B:And then there's this place where there is real fruit.
Speaker B:But you don't do that if you're not scattering your seed, if you're not casting the bread, if you're not asking, you're not.
Speaker B:You're not going to have the opportunities.
Speaker B:And if you are too afraid or too shy or something along that line, you won't.
Speaker B:You can make.
Speaker B:You can make failure happen and success might happen.
Speaker B:And it's more likely to happen through repeated effort and sustained effort.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker A:And failure is very easy to accomplish.
Speaker A:You don't do anything right to get to failure.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:I'm curious, Mark, as you think about your life and your journey, who are some people in your life who served as a mentor or inspiration for you?
Speaker A:I'll kind of give you a chance to give them a shout out for having such a critical part in your life.
Speaker B:Yeah, I am a very fortunate person.
Speaker B:And this is one of my favorite things to talk about, because mentoring is a key part of leadership.
Speaker B:Otherwise we're not really leading.
Speaker B:So my father had a sense that his son was somewhat precocious and needed some guidance, and so he strategically placed mentors in my life I knew about some of them, others I found out afterwards.
Speaker B:But you know, people would call me up and say, hey, I'm gonna take you out to lunch or I'll take you out to breakfast on this Saturday.
Speaker B:Why don't you come along with me, I'm gonna run some errands and we'll talk a bit.
Speaker B:I thought this is what adults do, you know, I thought this was normal.
Speaker B:I thought every person gets this and didn't realize until I was actually an adult that no, this is a very, very special endowment that I've been given by that kind of investment.
Speaker B:So I just, I have a very specific one to tell you about.
Speaker B:But that, that garden that my dad helped me to grow or that place he placed me in, what a gift that was.
Speaker B:There's one person in particular, he's now deceased, Bill Claufenstein.
Speaker B:Bill was a president of a property and casualty insurance company, Brotherhood Mutual, based Fort Wayne, Indiana.
Speaker B:That's where I grew up.
Speaker B:He attended the same church we did.
Speaker B:He was now retired, so he was not the president anymore.
Speaker B:I knew him as this short, round, bald headed guy, kind of like me, I'm that, that I went to church with, but was also very friendly and all.
Speaker B:But anyway, he would come up to me strategically throughout my teen years and he'd find me after a church service and he'd get me not up against the wall, but he'd find me kind of in this spot and he'd get in real close in my face and same height and he'd say, mark, I pray for you.
Speaker B:And every morning at breakfast there is something special about you.
Speaker B:God has his hand on your life.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:I don't know what it is.
Speaker B:I hope you'll listen, I hope you pay attention.
Speaker B:And this was not a guy who was saying it to every 15 year old boy.
Speaker B:He saw.
Speaker B:He was saying it and it didn't matter.
Speaker B:He was saying it to me.
Speaker B:First time I'm like, wow, this is strange.
Speaker B:Second time this is getting a little heebie jeebie, you know.
Speaker B:And the third time I'm starting to listen because he was serious about it and he was just.
Speaker B:It was like drips in my bucket every now and then.
Speaker B:Here's this drop of water he's pouring in, reminding me that he's watching, he's observing, he cares, he hopes I'll grow up and be respectable, have a, have a virtue, have a character.
Speaker B:This is a guy that could have retired anywhere he wanted, you know, he'd had a life and he chose to Invest in me in that very encouraging way.
Speaker B:So that's one that's very memorable, mostly because of how persistent and rhythmic he was with that encouragement.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:And I remember going, when I was a younger pastor and I'd been out for about.
Speaker A:For a while, and I started going, you know, what I really missed was I didn't have a mentor when I was a young pastor.
Speaker A:And it would have been so helpful to have someone to kind of bounce my crazy ideas off of.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Somebody who takes you seriously and then asks you questions to draw out implications so you realize, hey, this is a great idea, or that is a stinky idea.
Speaker B:I should not do this.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:And I remember, I remember taking the time to do that with younger pastors.
Speaker A:I noticed.
Speaker A:And later on in life, I'm going, let me just find a young pastor that I can just walk alongside if he's open to it, and just be a sounding.
Speaker A:Sounding board for.
Speaker B:Good for you.
Speaker B:Because then you did this other kind of corollary to what my dad was saying when he said, if you ask, you might get.
Speaker B:If you don't ask, don't get.
Speaker B:Sort of like, well, there are things that you weren't given.
Speaker B:You can whine about it or you can help give it to other people.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You know, don't, don't.
Speaker B:Don't waste any time any more time on the wine part.
Speaker B:You weren't endowed with it.
Speaker B:It wasn't available to you.
Speaker B:And that's, that's, that's actually cast light to that generation before you that they didn't think about.
Speaker B:It wasn't a part of their leadership fabric.
Speaker B:But you can help it be a fabric for other people out of the deficit, as well as whether you've been given an asset like I had.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So good for you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it was, it was so neat because I, As I was reflecting back on my 32 years in ministry, people comment on my social media about, thanks for being there, walking us through some dark times.
Speaker A:And I hadn't thought about it, but it was kind of like a nice to go back and look at those moments.
Speaker A:That was kind of fun to be able to be there for you for that.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:That your father thought about that for you.
Speaker A:I hope the audience hears that and says, you know, can I do the same thing for my kids?
Speaker A:Are there people I can put in their life who would be good mentors for them that would have those kind of conversation with them and think about who are those people you'd want to go visit your Kids, right.
Speaker B:And that stuff often takes just a moment.
Speaker B:So we can also ask ourselves, who can I be that for?
Speaker B:Like, who.
Speaker B:Who's out there that will benefit from me popping this text in to them?
Speaker B:Because I was thinking about them, you know, hey, I see you, hey, you know, thinking about you today because of where I was at or coming up to them at a place that we see them and just saying, man, I appreciate you.
Speaker B:Nobody gets enough of that in their lives.
Speaker A:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker A:So I'm curious, Mark, you've been described as a pioneer in the process consulting.
Speaker A:Can you share kind of your journey, what drew you into this field and how you got involved?
Speaker A:And that is a life's work.
Speaker B:Yeah, I sure can.
Speaker B: In the: Speaker B:Not as game theory and what's the math, you know, from an economics point of view, but how do we build consensus?
Speaker B:How do people get decisions made?
Speaker B:This is when the language of hey, let's have, let's find a win win scenario.
Speaker B:Getting the S by Fisher and URI comes out of Harvard Negotiation Project.
Speaker B:My memory is that Rutgers and MIT were a part of some of that study as well.
Speaker B:And so now you're starting to have social science coming out and demonstrating that the techniques that cloister Jesuits and Quakers had long been doing, you know, the religious traditions, even, even some of the Indian Councils, from what I understand would follow this thing of we go around, we talk it through and then we get a sense of where we're at.
Speaker B:And yeah, someone may be the decision maker, but our voices matter and these methodologies work.
Speaker B:So I was working at group process and group decision making as a graduate student.
Speaker B:This stuff is coming out where I've got social science to back up some of the religious traditions.
Speaker B:I was studying at the same time.
Speaker B:And I was just after, how can I be more effective leader?
Speaker B:Because voting isn't helping.
Speaker B:And trying to do meetings where you process things, that didn't help because in the real meetings we're taking place in the parking lot or at the employee water cooler or whatever else.
Speaker B:And the, the formal stuff wasn't working.
Speaker B:The informal stuff was trumping it.
Speaker B:How do you get those to work together?
Speaker B:I just wanted to be a more effective leader.
Speaker B:I'm in graduate school, I'm studying this stuff.
Speaker B:Here comes the social science.
Speaker B:The world kind of wakes up to it.
Speaker B:And so language like brainstorming and mind mapping and teaming and win, win, that was all brand new stuff in the years that I'm describing.
Speaker B:But I am fresh with it.
Speaker B:So I start getting these invites.
Speaker B:Will you come help us?
Speaker B:We're stuck.
Speaker B:We're painted in a corner, we're, we're lost.
Speaker B:Our normal ways aren' aren't working.
Speaker B:We don't know what to do.
Speaker B:We heard you worked on some new methods.
Speaker B:And so I just pretended they were new when they're actually quite ancient.
Speaker B:They were just finding a new, a new place in our history and, you know, began doing it.
Speaker B:And it's the methods work.
Speaker B:They work, they work repeatedly.
Speaker B:And so a career was born in the middle of that that I hadn't planned for.
Speaker B:I just found that I had some adeptness for it.
Speaker B:The skills that I had combined well with this knowledge and the cultural moment.
Speaker B:And so I ended up with a career.
Speaker B:Well, along the way, two other things are happening.
Speaker B:You've got Edgar Schein describing what process consulting is.
Speaker B:And he's written many books, provided scads of case studies.
Speaker B:It's like, well, this is what we're doing.
Speaker B:This is yet another way that demonstrates it works.
Speaker B:And then you have Peter Block writing about what flawless consulting looks like, which is, you don't get enmeshed with your client, you don't upsell them, you honor boundaries.
Speaker B:You ask what they care about, you help them.
Speaker B:Architect, and you do it together.
Speaker B:So combining this, I began to say, I think there is a career here.
Speaker B: ernational at that time, year: Speaker B:So instead of being subject matter experts that come in and say, here's what we know, let's sell you our time, let's sell you our knowledge.
Speaker B:We're coming and saying, you don't know, that's why we're talking.
Speaker B:So why would we pretend to know?
Speaker B:Let's dig in, let's sort it through, let's figure it out, let's discover what the adaptive moves are.
Speaker B:And so you use an iterative, some would say a Socratic process to, to help emerge what the client is actually willing to do.
Speaker B:If we don't have that, then all they're waiting to be told is what to do.
Speaker B:And then they're gonna blame the consultant.
Speaker B:Cause the consultant doesn't understand us.
Speaker B:And so process consulting became the field.
Speaker B:Well, you had someone like Edgar Schein, who's just contributed so much, now deceased, who described the method.
Speaker B:My question was, what does it look like if it's your profession?
Speaker B:And so we established this first entity that was a community of practice, people who had all kinds of expertise, but their mode was process consulting.
Speaker B:And then we created the training arm called the Society for Process Consulting so people can get a professional credential.
Speaker B:And that's, I think, where some of my pioneering was coming from, was saying, how do we turn this into a profession?
Speaker B:How do we train people for the profession?
Speaker B:What are the core competencies that we can recognize and train for and use to evaluate?
Speaker B:And it's been kind of my life work to do that.
Speaker A:So let's talk about, let's drill a little deeper in that, because I do kind of what you do for the church side.
Speaker A:We don't, I don't call it consulting, but it's along the same lines.
Speaker A:Churches call me because they're stuck and they go, you know, give us a silver bullet that's going to make us grow.
Speaker A:And, and I go, there is no silver bullet.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:And if you had it and if you would shoot it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You would be a contractor.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You would be a vendor or a project manager or something like that.
Speaker B:You would not be consulting with.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You, you wouldn't be listening to the problem or the challenge with.
Speaker B:I, I agree with you.
Speaker A:So what are some of the core competencies you found that makes what you do different than maybe traditional consulting?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Well, there are many fine consultants that are out there, subject matter experts who use what I'm about to describe that just might not be out in front.
Speaker B:And also, I'm not trying to paint, oh, we're superior over here with how we do things or anything, but the core competencies.
Speaker B:We did a lot of work on this, and there's a book out there called Listening, Helping, Learning, the Core Competencies of Process Consulting.
Speaker B:So it's really done in detail.
Speaker B:We have a global group of consultants that wrote up case studies to show you what it looks like in practice and so forth.
Speaker B:But there are 12 competencies we've been able to identify.
Speaker B:They fall into those three categories of listening, helping, and learning.
Speaker B:And I can get very specific, you know, around that.
Speaker B:But let me summarize it this way.
Speaker B:We listen so well that the client says, you just said it better than I did.
Speaker B:When we play it back.
Speaker B:And we listen so well that the client actually starts to listen to their opportunity or their challenge alongside you.
Speaker B:And you can visualize that instead of being across the table, all of a sudden you're side by side looking at this.
Speaker B:It that you're trying to resolve an opportunity or challenge or a mix.
Speaker B:So we're listening so well that, that Happens that means now help is co created.
Speaker B:The consultant doesn't help the client, they don't perform on the client.
Speaker B:What happens is we listen so well.
Speaker B:We get this thing constructed well enough that we're now listening to it together so that we together decide what help looks like.
Speaker B:And when we're doing that, we're moving into space we might call differentiated, unique, new, innovative stuff, adaptive stuff.
Speaker B:We've never been here before.
Speaker B:Well, then we're all going to learn.
Speaker B:The question is, what are we going to do with the learning?
Speaker B:Are we going to render this learning so that mentoring can take place with people who weren't here at the moment of that learning?
Speaker B:So that our, our ceiling, the place that we arrive at, becomes the floor that the next generation of leaders will be able to build from.
Speaker B:So you, you end up listening so well that help becomes co created and you together learn and you do something with that learning that lives beyond you.
Speaker A:I love.
Speaker B:And that would be the core competencies.
Speaker A:No, those.
Speaker A:That's phenomenal.
Speaker A:Because I think that's really so cool.
Speaker A:Because oftentimes like the complaint I get about consultants is they come in, they identify the problem and then there's a 6 month to 12 month walk alongside and then hopefully you figured it out enough to be able to make a change.
Speaker A:So how do you, how do you help the clients after you've walked alongside them and you've identified together what the problem is and you learn how.
Speaker A:What's the next step for the people you're working with to actually solve that issue?
Speaker B:Well, you, you know the, the consultative answer for this, right?
Speaker B:It depends.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So in this mode of consulting, again, we're not performing, we're not subject matter experts, we're not there as contractors.
Speaker B:You're there to walk along.
Speaker B:Besides, the client owns the project, the client owns what success looks like, the client owns their learning.
Speaker B:You're accompanying them for as long as they want you to and as long as you have a sense that they're actually living into their learning and not just cycling around.
Speaker B:So when that begins to happen, the next question becomes, is there something else you want to work on as opposed to I have this thing.
Speaker B:I can upsell you.
Speaker B:I can, I can, you know, if we can go to phase two now of my plan for you, now you've done phase one, that, that's all off the table.
Speaker B:There is no upsell.
Speaker B:There is simply what it is they've defined they want to work on, who's going to work on it, by what deadline, you do it, you Wrap it up.
Speaker B:And now if you've done it well, you've got a trusted relationship.
Speaker B:So they're either going to ask you to help them with their next thing or they're going to say, you know, our next thing requires a certain kind of expertise or requires a certain time frame or whatever else.
Speaker B:Who do you know that could help us with blank?
Speaker B:And you live into that trusted relationship where they know that they're talking to you.
Speaker B:You're not selling, you are a friend, you are a companion in their journey.
Speaker B:And on occasion you can be, you can continue to be helpful to them.
Speaker B:So the client is saying what the follow on time is.
Speaker B:The client is saying when it begins, when it ends.
Speaker B:Now, as with your expertise, you might say, can I observe something here?
Speaker B:I observe that you're talking about a three month timeline, but you've said your, your major shareholder meeting, your annual meeting, if you're prioritization, whatever, that's in six months.
Speaker B:I, that I don't see it lining up quite right.
Speaker B:Can we, can we talk about that?
Speaker B:So you can bring those kinds of observations as opposed to bringing pronouncements.
Speaker B:But they are the ones who are in charge, they own this process.
Speaker B:So from the get go, you are planning to go away as opposed to being anxious.
Speaker B:How do I get another gig with you so that I can meet my goals, my production goals?
Speaker B:You know, you have to have dealt with your anxiety in such a way that you are not, you are not there to sell, you are there to help the client succeed.
Speaker B:And with a belief that this way of working will produce other opportunities.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:And that's, that's so critical is what you do.
Speaker A:I'm curious, as you think about consulting, sometimes I think about consultants that you have special, special areas where you excel.
Speaker A:Is there an area of business or area, type of client that you look for versus we can work with anybody.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's a big problem.
Speaker B:Is it?
Speaker B:The person who often is starting out feels like I, I am a hammer for everybody's nail, you know?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And what that means is that they will do mediocre, mediocre work because they'll feel like they have to have an answer, they have to perform well.
Speaker B:So there are ways that a person can set up a consulting business where they don't have to be yes to everything, but they can refer, they can be networked, they can actually work with other experts that may already have a strong client relationship with, you know, your client.
Speaker B:So you, you need to get past that hurdle right away.
Speaker B:Otherwise you're you're going to get a bad reputation, then the other piece is, well then what market are you serving and what place within an organization do you prefer to serve?
Speaker B:So the work of doing some business planning, putting a business plan together is really a wise thing for person who wants to have a consulting practice to do so that they know what their market is and they know what their brand is and they know what their values are so that they can match up with their clients.
Speaker B:They're trying to be everything to everyone.
Speaker B:In process consulting it translates across all kinds of industry and all kinds of verticals.
Speaker B:Yet it is not the best thing when somebody needs a very specific piece of expertise.
Speaker B:So let's say you're working on a great big accounting problem and you're using a specific software.
Speaker B:If you call me up and I start saying why does this matter to you and who's going to play what role?
Speaker B:You're not looking for a consultant really, you're looking for an answer and you, you know specifically what the problem is.
Speaker B:And you're not looking for an ongoing trusted relationship.
Speaker B:You just want customer service.
Speaker B:Well then right again, you're back into a vendor relationship.
Speaker B:So a process consultant isn't looking to be a vendor.
Speaker B:A process consultant is looking to help a process get fixed that is broken or to seize on an opportunity that's in front of them.
Speaker B:So it could go across all kinds of verticals, but then it's who do you work best with?
Speaker B:And so forth.
Speaker B:So for myself over the years it's narrowed and narrowed and gotten deeper to where I primarily now work with long time leaders who are looking at business continuity and succession planning.
Speaker B:I work with non profits, I work with faith based organizations, I work with churches, I work with manufacturers, stockholder companies and all.
Speaker B:But it's almost always that much narrower band of business continuity and succession.
Speaker B:I've learned to think of it as one of the places where to be a process consultant, you're at the highest art form because there's so much value that can get lost, there's so much that can go wrong, there's so many moving parts.
Speaker B:When you're looking at wanting to transition from one long standing leader to a next without losing a step.
Speaker B:So a phrase I use is my lane is who wants to help a slingshot their successor into the future?
Speaker B:Those are my clients.
Speaker A:You know, I, I'm working on working with several nonprofits right now and that idea of succession has come up.
Speaker A:I wonder what is the greatest challenge you found in really putting together an effective succession plan?
Speaker A:What are some of the hurdles?
Speaker B:Yeah, there are two really big ones that come to mind right away.
Speaker B:One is this thing that continuity and succession are often divorced from each other, seeing as different compartments.
Speaker B:So continuity tends to become buildings and grounds and equipment and maybe some things around a set of services or products.
Speaker B:And succession tends to be rooted in talent.
Speaker B:So it might be over here, you've got a finance committee or a property committee or, you know, other technical skills happening.
Speaker B:And then with the succession, you're looking at HR or maybe a committee of a board, or maybe it's just a key leader appointing people, you know, because they think it's their choice.
Speaker B:Well, continuity and succession are two Ps in a similar pod.
Speaker B:They influence each other, they affect each other.
Speaker B:It's really wise to plan them both.
Speaker B:Your talent, continuity, and your equipment facility.
Speaker B:Continuity is what helps the business or the enterprise continue.
Speaker B:So it's not helpful when they're a separate conversation.
Speaker B:They get their timing messed up, you know.
Speaker B:So let's say it this way.
Speaker B:If I'm thinking, all right, we need to plan for a capital savings account to replace the roof on a building, but the talent isn't paying attention to that and isn't monitoring that and isn't building it into the future balance sheet of things.
Speaker B:We can say we're setting up the account, but it's not being populated with dollars and a rhythm that sets us up.
Speaker B:Which would mean then that a successor has to take care of the new roof repair when it could have been planned for all along.
Speaker B:So it's that kind of thing.
Speaker B:When that's not brought together, that's a big problem.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The other one that I would point to is that a lot of leaders think of this in a binary choice.
Speaker B:So choice one, when you're done, you go away, you disappear, you never talk to anybody again.
Speaker B:Because look at all of the damage that's been done by leaders that couldn't let go.
Speaker B:So that's one choice that they see.
Speaker B:The other is the you can't let go.
Speaker B:Look at the number of stories where the founder, the longtime leader, leaves and the whole thing collapses.
Speaker B:You know, they've got abundant evidence, and it's either either you hang on and make sure that the successor can go, or get out of here and let them fail on their own.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And if that's the only choice we had, I'd say, well, then probably getting out is more effective than trying to linger.
Speaker B:And yet, there is a way of being planful.
Speaker B:When we start enterprises, we have to plan.
Speaker B:We have to document.
Speaker B:We got to write it up.
Speaker B:The bank will give us a loan.
Speaker B:Otherwise investors won't give us money.
Speaker B:Donors aren't going to give us money.
Speaker B:Now, if you're going to start like a new church or a new nonprofit, you've got months of work to pull a board together, to get the application filled out, to wait for approval before you can accept donations and give tax receipts and all that stuff.
Speaker B:Lots and lots and lots of work.
Speaker B:We're very thoughtful about it.
Speaker B:When it comes to succession, we think we should just be able to ride the momentum that we're on.
Speaker B:But you're planning for, hopefully a future beyond the current time that you plan for.
Speaker B:So planning matters.
Speaker B:And that includes planning the stair stepping down while someone else is stair stepping in.
Speaker B:For it to be transparent, for it to be authentic, for it to be visible to other leaders like a board or to a bank or whoever else needs to see it, just like we did when we started.
Speaker B:And that's a choice that.
Speaker B:That is where we find the success stories.
Speaker B:What people tend to want to do is to point to the failure stories to justify which side of that binary choice they want to make.
Speaker B:The success stories are found in these planful forms of succession, whether they went quickly or more slowly.
Speaker A:I can think of several churches that I've observed and I've even been part of where when the charismatic leader who founded the place left, the next generation of leaders did not do as well and the church suffered.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Can you give an example of some succession plan you worked with?
Speaker A:Not necessarily to give us a name, but just kind of the process they use to have a smooth transition to a successor?
Speaker B:Yeah, and I love, I love those stories.
Speaker B:The one that I love to do a compare and contrast on comes right from the Scriptures.
Speaker B:Let's start there.
Speaker B:But then I'll tell you one out of my practice.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:I love to compare, like the story of David to Solomon or Moses to Joshua.
Speaker B:And Moses had failures along the way.
Speaker B:Let's not forget his brother, his sister, others who thought they should have leadership and all that.
Speaker B:I mean, there's just so many stories of where it didn't go well, but then it did.
Speaker B:And you don't find that Moses abruptly walked away from Joshua or that Jesus abruptly walked away from disciples, did leave, did go away, did die, did ascend, whatever else.
Speaker B:But they had this time of working together and trying things and, and talking about what it would like when they were leading and.
Speaker B:And you got this very deliberate form of handing off one favorite story of mine just Came more recently where that.
Speaker B:And with this client.
Speaker B:They were the CEO and they had a business.
Speaker B:They've been growing significantly year over year.
Speaker B:About tripled their size in the 10 years that I worked with him.
Speaker B:I wish I could take some credit for it, but I sure got to enjoy watching the story.
Speaker B:And he was pretty sure he'd be in that business for another 10 years.
Speaker B:But he also knew that the next round of growth meant he had to have a good, strong number two, someone who could operate the business someday and so forth.
Speaker B:So they actually went out.
Speaker B:They didn't have an internal person.
Speaker B:Oftentimes there is, but in this case there was not.
Speaker B:They, they found an external hire from within their industry who already was known by some of the other key players in this growing business.
Speaker B:And they brought him in.
Speaker B:He had a significant C suite type of a role, promoted him to be like a COO of the whole thing.
Speaker B:And this helped the organization then begin to determine what's our next round of growth.
Speaker B:Because now the CEO could really start to look at future value.
Speaker B:He wasn't being drugged down into the business nearly as much.
Speaker B:So he's looking externally what's next for us.
Speaker B:He started getting really, really strategic and it became clear they either needed a new round of investing from inside or they need to go get some external investors.
Speaker B:And they were able because of this very deliberate process and this, this hardly ever happens, but they actually sent a notice out to potential investors to say, we're sponsoring the beauty contest.
Speaker B:Normally it runs the other way around.
Speaker B:Like, you know, we have to prove to you that, you know, we're, we're worth investing in.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:And you'll do all the question asking, no, you're going to come if you think we're worth it.
Speaker B:We have questions we want to ask of you.
Speaker B:We have some specifics that we want.
Speaker B:We want to keep our leadership team intact and all of that.
Speaker B:We were looking for a long term play.
Speaker B:They went out and they got this investment that as I told you, they about tripled in 10 years.
Speaker B:They've tripled again in about three because they were very carefully school on this.
Speaker B:They were prepared.
Speaker B:They got the infusion of capital that they needed to, you know, to go after this growth.
Speaker B:Well, in the meantime, the CEO moves up to start chairing their new board.
Speaker B:Now that they've got the investor.
Speaker B:The investor wanted the CEO to stay and to help them with some additional marketplace acquisitions.
Speaker B:So that's now where his time is given.
Speaker B:Whole new lease on life, a whole new chapter in his career.
Speaker B:He's not.
Speaker B:Not running the business.
Speaker B:That president is now the CEO.
Speaker B:So that.
Speaker B:That'd be an example.
Speaker B:Well, that was about a three year, very deliberate journey.
Speaker B:There were a lot of moments of oh my goodness.
Speaker B:And this is a complete change for me in my career.
Speaker B:I don't get to just ride my horse, who's more tired into the sunset, you know, and retire.
Speaker B:It became, do I have a charge to go another five years or more to do this thing?
Speaker B:It was really exciting to watch that all unfold.
Speaker A:That is great.
Speaker A:I love that story.
Speaker A:As you think about where consulting is going in the future, what do you see as an emerging trend in this realm?
Speaker B:One trend that seems like it's always emerging and will never go away, it tends to cycle are people who are in between the long term secure jobs they want and are trying to fill the space with gig work.
Speaker B:And so they get a website, call themselves consultants, they make themselves available and oftentimes it's really more like contractor work again, you know, take on these projects and so forth.
Speaker B:But that tends to flood the market and it tends to be underpriced.
Speaker B:And folks like this aren't building a platform where they care all that much about customer service.
Speaker B:So once they get more than two or three clients, they're not doing the stuff to keep building business after that.
Speaker B:And they don't have the infrastructure in place to handle that fourth or fifth client.
Speaker B:And if they try, then they run into a failure, then they went out or one of those clients now wants to hire them permanently and that's what they're looking for.
Speaker B:And so they go.
Speaker B:So we have this thing, well, with all of the federal layoffs, especially federal, you have a lot of flooding the market again of people who are like, well, I did all this thing for 20 years for the VA.
Speaker B:I did the stuff for, for the State House.
Speaker B:I ran these aid programs, you know, really beautiful work that they got to do.
Speaker B:They're trying to put food on their table.
Speaker B:They might feel like they can't, you know, land at the next job very easily, but they know this thing so they start shopping around, trying to do piece together gig work.
Speaker B:I wish them well.
Speaker B:I also note that that will dissipate and some might succeed and but it floods and it goes away.
Speaker B:And so right now that's trending up is that there are more people putting themselves into the marketplace as consultants.
Speaker B:That being said, more and more right now you're going to see people saying, I have something to say about AI.
Speaker B:I have something that can help you get that installed.
Speaker B:Well, I'll go right back to say they may use some process consulting skills with that.
Speaker B:They should, they need to, but it's primarily let's deliver the goods and it's not quite the same as let's sit down and figure this out.
Speaker B:So in for the process consultant, the pure, in the purest form, you'd be helping them to determine which AI vendor they want to work with or someone who can help them implement it and that kind of thing.
Speaker B:But, but AI is really starting to crowd that space.
Speaker B:Let's add one more thing.
Speaker B:AI threatens to do consultative work.
Speaker B:You know, why, why should I ask you and pay you a thousand bucks an hour or a thousand bucks a day or whatever it is when I can pay my 150 bucks a year to a chat GPT or something similar and ask it some questions?
Speaker B:I mean I.
Speaker B:There's more we could talk about with that, but those are trends.
Speaker A:Okay, I love that.
Speaker A:So tell us a little bit about your book.
Speaker A:Why'd you write it and who do you hope picks it up and reads it?
Speaker B:Well, Listening, Helping, Learning was written because the.
Speaker B:Why because we were putting together a way of saying this is the profession of this form of consulting and we need people to know what it, what it looks like when it's done well.
Speaker B:The client needs to know what it looks like when it's done well.
Speaker B:A consultant who says I'm a process consultant needs to know what it looks like when it's done well.
Speaker B:And other process consultants, other people who are in this field be able to say you do it well or this is a problem and, and to be able to have some common expectations among competitors and colleagues and so forth of what this looks like.
Speaker B:There was, there's no standard, there's no other evaluative body.
Speaker B:So let's put this together so that we can police ourselves, so to speak, in this regard.
Speaker B:So clients who want a different way of working with consultants.
Speaker B:This book's really good.
Speaker B:Internal project managers, like I run things internal to my company, but I want to use the process style.
Speaker B:I want us to learn to iterate, facilitate our meetings better, keep track of our documents.
Speaker B:What we would call the artifacts of a process, follow our process.
Speaker B:This is excellent for them.
Speaker B:And of course then the person who says I don't want to spend my life trying to just sell a service, I want to have long term relationships with clients that are trustable, trustworthy, and where we do high impact work together, we foster transformative change together.
Speaker B:Well, of course it's written for them.
Speaker B:And so those are who I hope read it, make use of it.
Speaker B:What I Love is the 24 case studies.
Speaker B:There's two case studies for all 12 of the competencies.
Speaker B:They make for great staff training, conversations, collegial and professional conversations.
Speaker B:How would we do this?
Speaker B:They follow the HBR type of methodology where they're mashups of two or three scenarios where all the stuff that's in them are true but you can't recognize who it is because it's not just one entity.
Speaker B:And I've had a lot of fun because I've had some people say I had to go look it up.
Speaker B:I had to Google to see if this was a real company.
Speaker B:It just felt so real and found it.
Speaker B:It wasn't.
Speaker B:But are you sure it's not a real company?
Speaker B:Who is that really?
Speaker B:It's like it's a mashup, you know, all of these things have happened, but not in this combination.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:So in season six, we have a surprise question for the guests.
Speaker A:Pick a number between 1 and 4 for your surprise question.
Speaker B:1 and 4?
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:For the minute there, I said.
Speaker B:I thought you said one and 400.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, no, no, let's take three.
Speaker B:I'll take.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker A:Your surprise question is what's something I would never guess about you?
Speaker B:What is something that you would never guess about me?
Speaker B:You might not guess that I once had a time in my life where I was complimented repeatedly, repeatedly for my beautiful head of thick, full hair.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker B:It's all migrated south to my chin.
Speaker A:Yes, you do have a lovely beard.
Speaker B:When I was 18, 19 years old, I didn't have a true mullet.
Speaker B:That's not with you, but I had that longish Jackson Brown kind of thing going.
Speaker B:Very pretty.
Speaker B:Good looking for a 19 year old guy with the hair.
Speaker B:Anyway.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:So here's my other favorite question.
Speaker A:What do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker B:I don't think of legacy as fame.
Speaker B:I think of it as what people remember and say about you.
Speaker B:For as long as you're remembered, the last chapter of one's life and career is usually what's most remembered and most, most replayed.
Speaker B:And my client base has taught me that if nothing else, you know, oh, man, Keith was a great leader until last year.
Speaker B:You know that that's how the story gets told.
Speaker B:So what I hope my legacy is is something like this.
Speaker B:He loved us.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker B:I would like, I would love my children, my grandchildren, my colleagues, investors, customers, clients, my wife.
Speaker B:I would, I would hope that with all my flaws, all the mistakes I've made, that one thing is that that is something that will have leaked through.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:So, Mark, where can people find your book and connect with you on social media and hire you if they need process consulting?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, the.
Speaker B:The main place to connect with me is through a website that is marklvincent.com so that's a gateway to a number of the resources.
Speaker B:And there you can find the book and get there.
Speaker B:But it's available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, there' Kindle version of it as well.
Speaker B:And I'm happy to talk with anybody that wants to reach out.
Speaker B:And oftentimes those just become wonderful conversations and I connect people to a resource that'll be helpful to them because I don't believe, like we were talking about before, that we're all things to all people.
Speaker A:Well, Mark, thanks so much for this conversation.
Speaker A:I've really enjoyed it and I thank you for pouring into my audience and giving us something to really think about and really kind of help us to begin to understand what you do and what makes it unique and special.
Speaker A:But also I love what I got of this even great concert too, was this idea of mentorship, because I love the idea of pouring into others and investing in what God has called them to be and gifted them to be.
Speaker A:So thank you for sharing that.
Speaker B:It's my pleasure.
Speaker B:It's just one of the definite things that really makes the distinctive definition to leading and managing is that moving into the future, not just taking care of what already exists.
Speaker B:And that's going to involve growing people.
Speaker B:So thank you.
Speaker A:Thanks, Mark.
